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  1. #76
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't care if McVeigh fired a shot that won a war. He extracted vengeance for killed children by killing children. Oh yeah, makes a lot of sense. The guy is a wack-job. He's messed up. Maybe his daddy didn't pay enough attention to him, but for whatever reason, he is screwed up.

    No war record can make up for one of the most horrible acts of terrorism in recent memory.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I'd say the war screwed him up.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I'd say we have absolutely no way of knowing if that is accurate right now. I also doubt it, but I don't really know. I don't believe he was messed up to the point of being unresponsible for his actions though. We've all heard him: he may be nuts in some ways, but he's obviously quite collected and business-like about all this.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by strangealienmagic
    Yeah, well, you overlooked the US's use of depleted uranium weapons in Iraq during the Gulf War and the illness and birth defects (including fetuses with no heads) that plague those areas even today. We're not quite as ignorant of our government actions here in land of stars and stripes as you assume.
    Yeah and one of your A10's 'busted' a British Tank - nice one!

    But how does killing 169 of your fellow citizens help right these wrongs?
    It doesn't - I am mearly making observations on your Governments ideas of 'Justice'.

    #1. Our FBI guys got shot up and driven off the one time they did try to enter the compound by force, early in the standoff.
    I thought, as Americans, you had the right to defend yourselfs against tyranny? The right to bear arms isn't it?

    #2. One of the big controversies surrounding Waco is the possible presence of actual military personel on the scene - who were NOT supposed to be present, since this was a civil matter.
    Funny that, isn't it? (or extremelly suspect)

    #3. Can you imagine the recriminations and outrage toward the government if what you are suggesting had been tried and even one child had been slightly injured?
    So we'll just gas 'em and burn 'em to death! 10/4

  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    z7, I don't like this idea that somehow the government in place during the Waco incident is connected to the one now. There are plenty of new people here. It's not as if the same person who ordered the strike in Waco flipped the switch on the electric chair. If you're looking for hypocriscy in an indvidual person here, I don't know that you'll find it.

    The US has some tough choices to make. One of these choices involves the death penalty. I don't think this country, if counted on the whole as one entity, is necessarily any more hypocritical than the country you live in z7, or any other. No country has everything together.

    Besides, all of this is irrelevant. Why is it taking so long to say "I don't like what happened at Waco" anyway?

  6. #81
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    I'd say we have absolutely no way of knowing if that is accurate right now.
    Well, he joined the Militia after being rejected from the Green Berri's (spelt?) - he couldn't adapt to civilian life and it is suspected that he had Post-traumatic-stress-disorder - bad situation.

    Self inflicted terrorism if you think about it.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Self-inflicted terrorism? Meaning what? I sure hope you're not suggesting that he is somehow not responsible for his actions. I knew someone, for a very brief while (but I have met him as far as I can remember, and have heard about them from others who knew him) who had such a wartime disorder, and everything I hear indicates some loss of control, and constant suffering.

    McVeigh never seemed for a second to be anything other than collected. He's not crazy in "that way" -- he's evil genius crazy. I certainly never got the impression he was in some kind of state of suffering, or that he didn't have control of himself. He told us fairly clearly why he did it, did he not? I don't think he can plead insanity here.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    z7, I don't like this idea that somehow the government in place during the Waco incident is connected to the one now. There are plenty of new people here. It's not as if the same person who ordered the strike in Waco flipped the switch on the electric chair. If you're looking for hypocriscy in an indvidual person here, I don't know that you'll find it.

    The US has some tough choices to make. One of these choices involves the death penalty. I don't think this country, if counted on the whole as one entity, is necessarily any more hypocritical than the country you live in z7, or any other. No country has everything together.

    Besides, all of this is irrelevant. Why is it taking so long to say "I don't like what happened at Waco" anyway?
    No you are right - my country is just as screwed, profit comes over safety on our railways!

    I have seen to many porky-pies from your Government already.
    I don't think your present government is much better - i.e. winding up Red China (largest land army in the world + full nuclear capability).

    Forgive me TWT - I am just angered over the injustices in this world (this McVeigh one happens to be connected to your country that's all!).

  9. #84
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    P.S. JFK was a don - shame he got knocked off...


    (but by who?!?!?!!????????)

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Winding up? All we wanted was our soldiers back. There is no doubt in my mind at all that China was 100% responsible for that incident. Freddy, on these forums, detailed the two types of aircraft for us, and after hearing from several others, it seems almost impossible that WE crashed into THEM.

    Anyway, that's off subject. Yes, there are many injustices. The only value Waco has is that it may prevent something similar from happening again. "We don't want another Waco!" -- kind of like the phrase "We don't want another Vietnam!" which seems to have had a bit of an impact on American history so far...

    ...although I can't say I always agree with it. I'm not nuts about a leader avoiding war because he's afraid it will carry the bad press Vietnam did. I come from Reagan's POV: peace through strength.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I think JFK was a good man and stopped you getting your asses blown to smithereens by the commies - he made some pretty good decisions there... (and probably saved the rest of the world from nuclear-fallout - right on!)

    Someone wanted the Vietnam war, and they got it + a whole lotta hurtin'...

  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Originally posted by z7


    Well, he joined the Militia after being rejected from the Green Berri's (spelt?) - he couldn't adapt to civilian life and it is suspected that he had Post-traumatic-stress-disorder - bad situation.

    Self inflicted terrorism if you think about it.
    From what I heard on NPR, he joined the Militia a few years after being rejected. I wish that NPR had the little article they ran on McVeigh online. It was very interesting actually.

    They say that he was extremely successful in the military and when he went for the Green Beret's and got rejected he felt spurned.
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  13. #88
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Hmmm - the way we saw it over here (from a neutral stand-point) was that you lot were spying on China and one of their planes hit yours (does it really matter who hit who?).

    I thought the whole thing was pretty comical actually...

    PB - Were sorry.

    (your soldiers come home)

    PB - ...not really

    Childishness on a global scale.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Every country, ally or otherwise, has spied on each other. Freddy detailed that extensively was well. It's also pretty much common sense. These runs over China are nothing new, but one of their planes smashing into us IS.

    Basically, we had a bit ol' plane, and they had a JET. We were not using a plane built for manueverability -- they were. We were a parked car.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Zealot strangealienmagic's Avatar
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    z7 you are truly an angry person. Can't say I blame you, as I've been there myself. I doesn't change anything though. Certainly not for the better.

    Just a couple of points.

    First, before you get too high and mighty about the US govenments missdeeds (and there have been many), you might want to address those of the British govenment when the "sun never set on the British empire." A long history of war, oppression, manipulation, and murder. Yer hands ain't lilly white either mate...

    Secondly, even though we have the right to bear arms in the US (which I fully support), and the right to self defense, a situation like Waco is going to end up in the courts. That's a fact whether you're fond of lawyers or not.

    The government is not going to just walk away from Waco, Ruby Ridge, or the Freemen standoff in Montana. They arrived at the front door due to an investigation, actual charges, or even by accident. But the fact is that you are going to have to explain yourself one way or the other, and that invariably ends up in court.

    I'm not talking about the rightness or wrongness of the government's actions. That's another subject altogether, and one we would probably agree on. But it's not realistic to think that the government is going to knock on your door, have you tell them to "get lost!," and then just go away. At that point, the responsibility for what happens next, and the level of violence used to settle the situation, is entirely up to you. That is just the way it is.

  16. #91
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I agree, I need to take a chill pill on this one.

    I am not being high-and-mighty - just making observations (although they are a tinged with a little anger I agree!)

    There was no 'situation' at Ruby Ridge.

    I am just concerned for your countries future (my girlfriend is American, see).


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