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  1. #26
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    This was not the first time I've seen a contest holder get flamed like that.

    Maybe we should add a couple rules of conduct to the list.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  2. #27
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    What happenned to the rule about conducting contests other places other than SitePoint?

  3. #28
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    Why should Contest Holders be exempt from comentary, when their behavior is less than honorable.

  4. #29
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsion
    Ya, this one turned out real bad. I know I spent alot of time on my design for it. But, this thread got out of control. Most of the people posting comments there didn't even have an entry in the contest. A few of us who did, basically backed out. I made a few comments and asked a couple of questions, but left it at that. However, others just started flamin' this guy. I think it was totally uncalled for. Like I posted at the end of the contest, this type of treatment toward a contest holder should not be allowed. It does nothing to help the forums. In my opinion it hurts them more than it helps them. To me, all it shows the contest holders is that if they make a mistake, they'll get treated poorly. I agree that there should be some type of repercussion for running a contest this way, but it should be handled by the admin, not the contestants.

    Tsion
    I think I'm going to like having you around tsion. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I totally agree that flame throwers should be immediately extinguished. It makes us all look bad, imo.

    Although there are a few design firms who outsource contests here for a fraction of what they get paid, I really think that most contest holders are putting up what they consider to be a good amount of money for their contests. I think they have a right to expect those that enter their contests to act in a professional and ethical manner.

    Since I'm venting a bit here, I'll also include that in addition to gushy fan comments, wisecracks and flames, I believe that poorly typed posts that are filled with misspellings and slang do nothing to advance the credibilty of the contest forum and only serve to emphasis the amateurs here.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  5. #30
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    actually that contest wasn't as bad as you think - its as a designer not of this board that saw the contest and offered the designs via another way therefore not the contest holders fault
    Does this comment then mean that all contests are open house here, that designers have no protection?

  6. #31
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    What happenned to the rule about conducting contests other places other than SitePoint?
    To answer this, the guy never conducted the contest outside of SP. Someone outsite of SP heard about the contest and sent him an entry without registering at SP. I never said I agreed with this. In fact, I personally posted my displeasure about it, and widthdrew my entries.
    But I never flamed the guy.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  7. #32
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    The contest should have been closed as soon as he made his statement about the other entry. And it's commendable that you never flamed Tsion. I think if I'd spent two or three days working on an entry I might have.

  8. #33
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    Why should Contest Holders be exempt from comentary, when their behavior is less than honorable.
    As for this, I never said contest holders should be exempt from comentary, but the type of commentary that was submitted in this particular instance was out of line. There are better ways to discuss the problems with a contest rather than just ripping someone apart because they did something wrong.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  9. #34
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    Sometimes going to a Mod, takes at least a day, sometimes many to get any response or action. You guys put in a lot of effort.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    Sometimes going to a Mod, takes at least a day, sometimes many to get any response or action. You guys put in a lot of effort.
    I don't know much about the Mod situation for the contest, but I agree that there needs to be a little more intervention on thier part.
    But, in thier defense, I'm sure this is not a PAID gig for them, and they have lives like the rest of us. Maybe there needs to be more mods, or a couple that deal only with the contest. I don't know the answer here. Only someone like Sarah can explain this one.

    Tsion
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  11. #36
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower
    I think I'm going to like having you around tsion. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I totally agree that flame throwers should be immediately extinguished. It makes us all look bad, imo.

    Although there are a few design firms who outsource contests here for a fraction of what they get paid, I really think that most contest holders are putting up what they consider to be a good amount of money for their contests. I think they have a right to expect those that enter their contests to act in a professional and ethical manner.

    Since I'm venting a bit here, I'll also include that in addition to gushy fan comments, wisecracks and flames, I believe that poorly typed posts that are filled with misspellings and slang do nothing to advance the credibilty of the contest forum and only serve to emphasis the amateurs here.
    Thank you Linda. I agree with your comments. If we ever expect to draw higher end contests, we must act accordingly. I know if I ever treated a client like some of the contest holders have been treated, I'd never have another client. Talent alone does not always do it. Sometimes it's as much attitude as well. I know this is a different situation here, but we still need to act with an amount of professionalism.
    Last edited by tsion; Apr 4, 2005 at 17:51.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    I have a question. Is there any way to tell that a contest is closed without actually going into the thread? I've been looking and I see no indicator icons or anything.
    I'm sure it's just my usual lack of intelligence, but I sure can't figure it out.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  13. #38
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsion
    I have a question. Is there any way to tell that a contest is closed without actually going into the thread? I've been looking and I see no indicator icons or anything.
    I'm sure it's just my usual lack of intelligence, but I sure can't figure it out.
    The only indication I've ever seen is once Sarah has closed a contest she usually modifies the original first post, so that it says contest closed. That way if you put your cursor over the title and it's been officially closed it shows in the alt text. There is a thread closed icon. The envelope with the lock, but I don't always see it used.

  14. #39
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Yes if I close a contest you should either see the padlock over the thread itself or the words closed on a tooltip rollover

    tsion - yes we are all volunteers and not paid - and yes we are a bit thin on the ground but then I might just be looking at that
    Regular user

  15. #40
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    More about dead contests and finished contests

    I saw today that there are a number of contests that have been concluded but not paid. I had trouble with one awhile back (Thanks Sara) but I think a few tweaks could be added to this area also. I think that whoever starts the thread should be liable for the payment and I think the thread starter and only the thread starter should be able to announce the chosen winner and files should be sent to that person.

    I also think that somewhere there should be a warning, especially for new people, to NOT send their files until after they have received payment. If the contest holder has chosen an entry, they know what you have to offer. I think they need to put up the payment or at least a healthy deposit to get the final product.

    However, I don't think it should be a "rule" since we all do business in different ways. I just think the newbies need to be warned about sending their work before being paid for it.

    I also think there should be some way to keep those that abandon contests from posting another one. I don't know what the solution is here, but I saw today that someone started a new user account to post a contest after they abandoned another contest. I understand that not every contest ends up with a final outcome, but it seems just common courtesy to at least come back to the thread and say they aren't going to choose a winner.

    Also, if they have picked "favorites" within their contest and asked for revisions to some of the entries, I think they have effectively nullified their option to not choose.

    What does everyone else think?
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  16. #41
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    You know I think one of the most important improvements would be to make some sort of link to this forum so the people in the contest forum would be aware it's even here.

    But I agree with Shy about the Contest starter, being held responsible. There have been some big money contests that supposedly ended, but no one has gotten paid yet.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower
    I saw today that there are a number of contests that have been concluded but not paid. I had trouble with one awhile back (Thanks Sara) but I think a few tweaks could be added to this area also. I think that whoever starts the thread should be liable for the payment and I think the thread starter and only the thread starter should be able to announce the chosen winner and files should be sent to that person.

    I also think that somewhere there should be a warning, especially for new people, to NOT send their files until after they have received payment. If the contest holder has chosen an entry, they know what you have to offer. I think they need to put up the payment or at least a healthy deposit to get the final product.

    However, I don't think it should be a "rule" since we all do business in different ways. I just think the newbies need to be warned about sending their work before being paid for it.

    I also think there should be some way to keep those that abandon contests from posting another one. I don't know what the solution is here, but I saw today that someone started a new user account to post a contest after they abandoned another contest. I understand that not every contest ends up with a final outcome, but it seems just common courtesy to at least come back to the thread and say they aren't going to choose a winner.

    Also, if they have picked "favorites" within their contest and asked for revisions to some of the entries, I think they have effectively nullified their option to not choose.

    What does everyone else think?
    Here's my take on this.

    1. Yes, the contest holder should be resposible for all transactions of the contest, which would include file transfers, etc. However, I wouldn't use the word liable here, I think it puts out too much negativity, and may sway a few contest holders away. I think responsible would be more fitting word.

    2. About transfering files, I think that's kinda common sense, but maybe there should be a stick thread with tips for Nub's, informal guidelines, etc.
    Something to that nature.

    3. Taking away someone's right to choose is never a good thing. Reguardless of the situation. If I go to buy a new car, and tell the salesperson that black is my favorite color, but I'm going to buy the red one, and they tells me no, you said the black one is your choice, you have to buy it. Do you think i'll buy either one? Not on your life. Might not be the best analogy, but I think you get the point.

    Tsion
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  18. #43
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsion
    Here's my take on this.


    3. Taking away someone's right to choose is never a good thing. Reguardless of the situation. If I go to buy a new car, and tell the salesperson that black is my favorite color, but I'm going to buy the red one, and they tells me no, you said the black one is your choice, you have to buy it. Do you think i'll buy either one? Not on your life. Might not be the best analogy, but I think you get the point.

    Tsion
    I agree with your statement about liable in #1. However I do think then you are getting into semantics, but responsible is just as good.

    In your #3 which I left in the quote, I do get your point, but I think you missed mine. If I tell your car salesman that black is my favorite color, but I want electric door locks instead of manual and he puts them in the car and then I say, "Yeah but I want a better stereo system" and he puts that in the car, at some point he should be able to assume that I will buy the car when he has modified it to suit my preference.

    When contest holders say they reserve the right to pick a winner if there is nothing they like, I think they should have that right, but if they like something and have it tweaked to their preference a number of times, then to me they have made a choice and to say at that point "no there is nothing I like after all" is just bogus.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  19. #44
    SitePoint Guru ckita's Avatar
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    Just going through this thread -Thanx Skyvee..

    i've been here a few months...

    and i've seen many contest etc...

    one of my main "concerns" if u could call it that, is

    how now it's so easy for anybody to compete....

    a member with 1 or no post at all can just pop in and start designing....

    althought i belive SP wants to give opportunities to every member..i still believe

    enforcing the rule we had earlier "a minimum of 25 posts before anybody can compete in the contest section" would be great.


  20. #45
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    Thanks skyvee for directing me to this thread.

    Thank you shyflower. my feelings exactly. The guy in the cole constuction did exactly that. He told me I was on the right track and asked for several revisions I worked very hard on this logo and as a result of this and a few other contests I will no longer do revision after revision without being declared the winner. Not to mention he is very rude. This has happened to me to many times here and I think some are taking advantage of us as designers. Also I have noticed that most of the contests that end without a winner don't have a website so we will never know if they just took our work and ran.

    I will still enter contests but not at the rate I was. I am glad to have found this site. I love the people here and feel I have made several good friends.

    Actually my portfolio is almost good enough that soon I will be advertising my own logo design site. Hopefully if all works out and I get enough business I will be running my own contests for clients here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower
    I agree with your statement about liable in #1. However I do think then you are getting into semantics, but responsible is just as good.

    In your #3 which I left in the quote, I do get your point, but I think you missed mine. If I tell your car salesman that black is my favorite color, but I want electric door locks instead of manual and he puts them in the car and then I say, "Yeah but I want a better stereo system" and he puts that in the car, at some point he should be able to assume that I will buy the car when he has modified it to suit my preference.

    When contest holders say they reserve the right to pick a winner if there is nothing they like, I think they should have that right, but if they like something and have it tweaked to their preference a number of times, then to me they have made a choice and to say at that point "no there is nothing I like after all" is just bogus.
    Feedback always appreciated

  21. #46
    SitePoint Member skyvee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower
    When contest holders say they reserve the right to pick a winner if there is nothing they like, I think they should have that right, but if they like something and have it tweaked to their preference a number of times, then to me they have made a choice and to say at that point "no there is nothing I like after all" is just bogus.
    I agree with you on this one, Shyflower! It is quite annoying when you are asked to do a number of revisions and they end up saying "Sorry, not what were looking for!" No winner is picked, but would generously offer $10 for each of the top three designs. Others might say $10 is better than nothing at all, but please....we worked our ***** off for these designs!!

  22. #47
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckita
    Just going through this thread -Thanx Skyvee..

    i've been here a few months...

    and i've seen many contest etc...

    one of my main "concerns" if u could call it that, is

    how now it's so easy for anybody to compete....

    a member with 1 or no post at all can just pop in and start designing....

    althought i belive SP wants to give opportunities to every member..i still believe

    enforcing the rule we had earlier "a minimum of 25 posts before anybody can compete in the contest section" would be great.

    It seems that more and more people are finding Site Point and entering a design contest on their first or second post. I don't want to see the contest forum become elitist like that of some other sites, but I do think there needs to be some kind of change.

    Granted that, just because someone is a new member doesn't mean they are new to design.

    I don't think any of us are adverse to seeing good professional design from a new member. At least for me, to see better designs gives me incentive to try to make my designs better as well.

    I think that much of the problem with new members in the contest threads stems from the fact that a lot of them act like they are still in General Chat. What we really need is some way to ensure that all members, old and new, display professionalism if we want to draw the high end contests.

    At the other end though, it does chafe that after a contest has been open for a couple of weeks and designers have done several revisions, a newbie comes in with one design and sweeps it. I don't know though... maybe that's just part of competition?

    So what's the answer?
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  23. #48
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    It is frustrating when you do a lot of revisions and a newbie comes in as shyflower said sweeps. But if they win I suppose they deserve it. Even though it does not always seem fair to someone who has done several revisions the contest holder has a right to get what they want. Lately I am just happy to see a winner announced. Any winner!
    Feedback always appreciated

  24. #49
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Hello to ckita, ccs111, and skyvee.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom

  25. #50
    SitePoint Zealot tsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyflower
    In your #3 which I left in the quote, I do get your point, but I think you missed mine. If I tell your car salesman that black is my favorite color, but I want electric door locks instead of manual and he puts them in the car and then I say, "Yeah but I want a better stereo system" and he puts that in the car, at some point he should be able to assume that I will buy the car when he has modified it to suit my preference.

    When contest holders say they reserve the right to pick a winner if there is nothing they like, I think they should have that right, but if they like something and have it tweaked to their preference a number of times, then to me they have made a choice and to say at that point "no there is nothing I like after all" is just bogus.
    Linda,
    I guess I did kind of miss your point on that one. But I see it now. I must be slowing down in my old age.
    Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
    -- Jimi Hendrix
    No I don't
    -- W. Wisdom


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