This has been one of the better threads I have read about forums - great work, I have learned alot.
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This has been one of the better threads I have read about forums - great work, I have learned alot.
Part 2 and some examples will be posted tonight...
Well I don't like some "extreme" ideas here, but I could find some intersting things thouhg. The thing with no forum ads on your forum is great indeed and I'll take care to implement it as soon as possible.
Since I don't have money to pay for Google I'll say it's not good tooThe sour grapes in my case
The contests are again a good idea. I've implemented a reward system on my site and I would like to think people are pleased with it so far. The controversy is indeed a good idea, but targeted to the main subjects .. and I cannot be an unfriendly admin since I'm a good girl.
I'll still wait for the follow up and yeah, the examples
Maybe this is a good idea, there is this 'karma'-function build in into vBulletin, a system to give users points based on the questions answered, problems solved etcetera.
I plan to use if on Frogo Online, to give karma points to the contributers of the forum. There will also be special images for the karma, so that those members will have something around them that says: " I'm a good contributor, follow my path! "
Maybe you find this with your own posts, but it certainly isn't my experience. Most of our members arise via sig file links - it's pretty much the only way in which our forums are promoted.Originally Posted by Crooked Peck
Perhaps it has something to do with what accompanies your posts. I notice in this thread that you have utter contempt for other contributors, you swear a lot and, if I'm to be frank, you come across (to me at least) as quite rude and arrogant. If you had a sig file associated with your posts, it wouldn't make me inclined to join your boards. If, on the other hand, you were a little more civil, understanding and less like 'a bull in a china shop' then maybe I'd give your sig file, if you had one, a second look.
Moral of the story: sig file links to forums DO work, but they are only as good as what you post.
Aaron
Acquiring Members from Other ForumsIf there’s a message board out there that shares your current theme and idea, access that forum’s member list and personally contact each member (except the moderators and admins) to invite them to your board through instant messages or e-mail. This might sound like a tedious process, but it works. I’d also recommend that you pose as one of them—a member from their board that’s long gone—when doing this. The reason being, a lot of forum members tend to be “loyal” to their community and be offended that someone would try to snatch them and co-members from their home, but pretending to be one of them would seem less intrusive!
I touched on this earlier without providing examples of how to go about creating a good sales pitch to bring these members into your forum. Here are two examples:
The above approach doesn’t work. One, you make it painfully obvious to the targets what you’re about and two, they have every reason to believe that clicking on the link will result in them being bombarded with pop-ups and pornographic paraphernalia. Try this one…“HEY, COME CHECK OUT MY FORUM AT WWW.IDONTKNOWWHATIMDOING.COM! THANKS!”
Notice how you’re not even asking them to join your forum. You’re asking them to just look at it. If they like it, they’ll register soon enough. Use that as a template. Once you collect all the names from one board, simply send your ad to them via instant messenger or e-mail.“Hey, this is Vader from the Star Wars board. If you're not too busy I wanted to ask if you'd be so willing as to check out this new Star Wars/Sci-Fi forum and give me a run down on what you think of it. We're trying to get some people to join so every bit of advice will help: http://www.starwarsandus.com/forum”
Now, the big issue is what fake name to use when sending out these ads. “What name should I use to make the individuals familiar and comfortable with me?” It depends on the forum you’re targeting. If it’s a video game message board, call yourself “Mario.” If it’s a sports message board, call yourself “Jordan” or “Ali” or someone as popular. The goal is to select a name that is potentially common and popular on the forum, giving your target invitees the belief that you’re actually a member of the community and know them. They’ll think, “Hey, it’s Mario, I’ve seen his name before on the board.” You get the needed ethos—the credibility—and they’ll most likely click on your link now.
Now that you know what to do, go out and GET YOUR MEMBERS! Access their members' list, get those emails and instant message names, and personally contact them. THIS WILL PAY OFF, TRUST ME!
You know that e-mail verification thing? Drop it. Now.
Why present an unnecessary obstacle for your new members, by having them go through the process of validating their e-mail just to post on your forum? If your message board is new, you don’t have to worry about trolls congesting your community, using multiple screen names. By having it on, you run the risk of having potential members forget all about your forum or possibly misplacing the activation e-mail (spam filters, etc.). As soon as they pick a screen name and enter their information, give them the immediate power to be able to participate in discussions!
Welcome your new members: personal greetings!
Set up your message board so that new members get a welcoming private message from the administrator or moderator of the forum. In that private message, provide a short summary of the community, along with your sincerest appreciation for having the member join your forum. Also, in that message, provide links to your “New members thread or section” and also a direct link to any contests/events you’re running. You don’t know how much new members appreciate stuff like that. Plus, it gives them an early sense of direction…to know where to go first and how to begin their relationship to your forum.
I’ve seen boards that have modified greetings and notifications on their board headers (a special greeting for guests; a special greeting for members who’ve never posted; and one for members who’ve not posted in a long time.). Those work, too. I have both systems set up, and each contain links to areas that I want to direct my new members to.
Starting fresh? Well, start basic!
It’s been said here a lot and I cannot agree more: do not open your forum to the public with too many sections. This puts new members into a panic mode because the multiple sections create the impression that new members have a long ways to go before they can "catch up;" that they have to read every post in every section to understand what’s going on. Make your message board simple at first—keep it to 3 or 4 sections max—and then gradually branch out when they become too clogged. For example, if you’re running a computer-related forum, start with: 1.) Hardware, 2.) Software, and 3.) General Discussions. Then, after a few months, segregate one section at a time: 1.) Hardware, 2.) Software (A. Games, B. Applications), and 3.) General Discussions.
New members can get easily confused. Hell, I’ll say it, new members can be really, really stupid. When they have to account for too many things, they go nuts and run off. Make it stupidly simple for them. Why? Because that’s what most of them are. No need beating around the bush for it.
Strike the right balance between features and content
If your message board possesses too many trinkets, you’ll find your main forum devoid of content, but if a message board is all you have, then you’ll have members going elsewhere during the forum’s “slow period” (and every forum suffers from that “slow period”). Here are some of the features I’ve come to HATE on message boards:
Karma and Reputation: What is the purpose of this feature? It’s utterly useless. When a new member comes to your board, he or she wants to participate and present an equal voice in discussions. However, when they see a twerp with 50 green bars come into the thread, suddenly that sense of equality is undermined because the new members will feel that people will be more likely to listen to Mr. Green Bars than they will them! All of this is psychological, folks!
Post Counts: Same as above. There should be no hierarchy established on any forum, except registered members and the moderators. That’s it. For new members, it’s intimidating and depressing to look upon members who have 50k posts under their belt. There is that perceived inequality. Do not just tell new members that their voices carry as much weight as the “old school regulars,” show it.
Democracy on a message board is CRAP!
This goes back to message board members being stupidly simple. They don’t know what they want. Have you ever let the forum decide on something, and the members either misuse it or don’t use it at all…even though they specifically lobbied for it??! DO NOT LET THE FORUM DECIDE ON CRAP! One day they’ll all vote for the forum to be pink, the next they’ll be sending you hate mail, wondering if you’re out of your God-given mind. Seriously, giving them that power is a statement about you: that you’re an indecisive administrator. Board members will never, ever appreciate that. Remember, they’re on YOUR forum so they expect to be TOLD what to do.
It’s like dealing with a woman (Y'all can call me sexist or whatever, but I don't give a crap.). If you let her decide on the dinner every night; decide on the movie; decide on the vacation spot, sooner or later she’s going to lose a little bit of respect for you. Hell, who am I kidding, she probably won’t be as attracted to you any more. The community is the woman, you’re the man…you tell them how things get played out.
That's it, folks! Good luck with your forums!
Last edited by Crooked Peck; Mar 21, 2005 at 21:49.
Bravo Crooked Peck - Bravo
Points well taken
Interesting, interesting. While I certainly disagree with some of your points, especially when it comes to the lack of morale, you make some very interesting and straight forward points.
I especially recognized myself in the situation of not letting the members decide anything. Reminds me of a situation I was in recently. I didn't actually let them decide anything, did what I thought was best, and when I did it, the same people who had been yelling to get it yelled because they hated it. Go figure.
Ah, see what calming down can do, Crooked Peck? Your "part two" is presented in a much calmer and more rational manner, and I think you'll find a lot of us more apt to take your seriously.
Regarding you "Rob the Competition Blind" bit, you've presented it in a much less caustic way this time around. Had you said you did in this post the first time, you might have had less negative reaction. I still don't agree with everything you say, but asking politely for members to come check out your site isn't a terrible idea. However, this is too close to spam for something I'D recommend, and I don't suggest that anyone try it here at SitePoint.
One part of this that I don't agree with is your contention that your name has anything to do with your success rate. Something that will matter much more here is your standing within the community. If I got a PM like the one above from a member with 0-5 posts and who had just registered, I don't care what the name is, I'm going to ignore it. Conversely, if I get a PM like the above from a member who is established in the community (been registered for awhile, high[ish] post count, helpful posts, etc.), I will be less likely to think of the message as spam, and more likely to actually check it out. And it won't matter what that member's name is.
I agree with almost everything else Crooked Peck said (and, by the way, these are mostly the same "bad advice" you've seen being given at this forum for years--bad advice according to CP's earlier posts... changed your tune, I suppose).
The one other part I don't agree with is the bit about reputation and post count. User ranks, reputation and karma, and forum currency, etc. systems do NOT hurt your forum growth. In fact, their specific purpose is to HELP promote forum growth by incentivizing the act of posting.
When I signed up at SitePoint two years ago I was not intimidated by people with large posts counts or high ammounts of reputation points, as I'm sure the vast majority of people weren't. Instead, I couldn't wait to get to the 100 post plateau so I could get another marking under my name. The ranks actually encouraged me to post more, and post faster. Similarly, the reputation system has encouraged me to make the most useful, and helpful posts I can, and helps foster a stronger community by encouraging people to let others know when they have been helped (which makes people feel good and want to help more).
I get PMs all the time from new members asking why they can't upload a custom avatar. You know what happens after I tell them you need 25 posts for a custom avatar? The vast majority of them try very hard to get to 25 posts. Incentivized forum activity is a VERY GOOD thing and will help you build your community.
The last bit about democracy... well, I don't really care for how you said it, but I've always said you need to be firm in enforcing your rules. You should take your members wishes into consideration, of course, but ultimately the administrators should be making decisions.
All in all, Crooked Peck, part two was worlds better than part one.
Crooked Peck’s forum building guide ethically translated?..
I. Rob the Competition Blind
Sort of,,, but let's say we don't steal or rob but rather network and scout from the other related sites.
What I do myself is as such:
a) Find any and every forum related and semi-related big or small.
b) Any bit of interactivity that is possible on that website, use it. (Any kind of forms, feedback scripts, suggestion requests, news submittals, the ability to add a link and so on.)
c) Browse the member list if possible for email, PM capability and user websites. Scout the website of the user for a way to then interact with them. If they do not have a website then contact them via PM or email. (Does this have to be a complete and obvious solicitation of the other sites users? No... you can try to avoid that perception by the way you communicate with those members. i.e. Indirectly promoting your site. “Hi there Johnny, I have this contest going and just wanted to give you notice in as you might be interested, thanks much.”)
d) For the interactivity part of all this as Crooked Peck says, make sure the table is full. Contests, draws, prizes, etc and this does not have to be bank breaking, it just has to exist. Then of course again agreed with Crooked Peck but it should be a common rule anyway,,,,, have some good threads already started and at least a few members from a 'pre-aggressive' stage of your site launch to get things rolling.
e) All this interactivity does need to include your signature... put it everywhere that it is appropriate. It will be critical to keep part in the other sites that you have mined. Unlike Crooked Peck's suggestion, it really is not that hard. You do not have to be a post whore with genius and intriguing posts but you need to be there and you need to be kind, cool, open and just there. Don't plug your site like most kiddies do, just a site signature for all your posts, forms you fill out, emails you send and PM's you initiate. Be sincere, pretend to be if you have to, never become confrontational, if conflict does arise with a user or admin, apologize and repeat your offer. (Remember.. contest, prize, draw that you have going on... now the admin or the loyal member still might not like you but he probably thinks your just naive and at least your not being a dick and guess what, he might take a closer look at your site.
f).If your targeting only a couple big related sites for solicitation of members then the users likely know of all these big sites already so your not going to lose anything by having a big link to each of these sites. Your intentions will appear more sincere when the admin's and loyal users start kicking around they see your a fan of the site where you found them.... This kinda relates to the 'pretend your one of them' theory which is fair but you should truly try to be one of them, it will pay off in the end.
II. Disallow advertisement of other message boards or site’s that have message boards.
Signature links are a must, you cannot restrict this... however if some newbie comes around making a 100% loud plug for a directly related site then delete it. Having forum rules that ban plugs in the forum itself and instead redirect to perhaps a under utilized or scattered weblinks section is a good cover.
III. Google Adwords works…if you have the money…
Budget, topic (keyword value) and many other factors come in here. If you know your keywords and have a few bucks then it can pay off but it is still a numbers game. If you don't have a lot of money and your audience is tough to target then don't bother or just run a small campaign turning off the content search and using very specific search keywords.... This can improve your adwords > conversion numbers but it will take a bit longer to find the keepers.
IV. Contests, Contests, and more Contests!
I agree 100%... while this can be hard for some topics where contest etc just don’t seem applicable, it is still possible. Small prizes and completely close to random criteria for contests, draws and prizes will keep users lurking and checking things out.... and you'll probably gain a guru or two or someone that is going to be around all the time to increase his odds, or someone that will contribute to your site.
V. Get hot or attractive members to post on your forum!
There is truth to this and it can work wonders just as much as Crooked Peck says it will,,,, however recruiting for this is what I call silly and embarrassing.
VI. Find the crazy and comical board member!
Personality and diversity on a forum is everything, I agree 100%.
VII. Post conversationally controversial topics
This one is a 50/50.... I mean, unless your site/forum surrounds some dark or cold following I don't suggest creating racial, sexist, or political tension in your forum. Depending on the topic of the site this type of conversation if heavily moderated can be 'productive' for your forums but you will want to make sure your users are half educated, older and open-minded.
"Use your artifice to measure a situation. It is a great stratagem to allow yourself to be known but not comprehended; to bait expectations but never completely satisfy them; to let much promise more and the best actions create and appetite for even greater ones." -Baltaser Gracian
The above quote by Mr. Gracian applies here, while his advice is for personal behavior the message for forum admin’s is to learn how to creatively spark and create conversation... to bait expectations, create an appetite and let your forum roll.
VIII. Don’t be a friendly or talkative Admin/Moderator
Not necessary but I can agree again... you want to keep your authority and control. This does not mean you need to be a power tripping and arrogant admin... it just means your admin account personality will behave 'correct' and neutral. Create yourself a moderator login or two and use that account to be the 'real' you or to be however you want.
-----------------
In summary here, I think Crooked Peck is basically right on the money, however for healthier site/forum community and less bumps so to say you will want to translate his methods into a more ethical approach using the same concepts. My guess is that Crooked Peck is indeed more into making revenue with his sites than for the satisfaction or enjoyment and that's fine but it is possible to have a capitalist business attitude without being evil.
Anyway, Crooked Peck would probably fall into his own category VI, or VII but that’s what makes this a fun thread and proof of those points to an extent.
Crooked Peck, can we see what forums you run? A curious look at your sites would be awesome.
Cheaters never prosper...
lol, I've just caught up on Crooked Peck's latest additions. Good stuff, indeed blunt but take what you want from it right.
We're even getting into Neuro Linguistic Programming in this thread.
Cool.
First of all, when you advertise using a common name: 1.) Members will not know which of the names you really are (eg, "Marioxx2," "Super Mario," etc.); 2.) People are NOT LIKELY to browse through the member's list to verify your identity. Why would they? They'd rather click on your link and get it over with. In my days of spamming, I've never had ONE person ask me, "Which one are you?" or "Exactly who are you? I don't see you on this member's list." Common responses are: "Thanks, I'll check it out." or "I'm sort of busy right now, but will definitely look at it later."One part of this that I don't agree with is your contention that your name has anything to do with your success rate. Something that will matter much more here is your standing within the community. If I got a PM like the one above from a member with 0-5 posts and who had just registered, I don't care what the name is, I'm going to ignore it. Conversely, if I get a PM like the above from a member who is established in the community (been registered for awhile, high[ish] post count, helpful posts, etc.), I will be less likely to think of the message as spam, and more likely to actually check it out. And it won't matter what that member's name is.
There is some rough competition out there. Why am I going to have my members jump through hoops to post an avatar or use some of my forum's many features? They'll be thinking the same thing. If you provide members with access to every -- or at least most -- of your forum's features, they'll feel more at home and when some goon from another community invites them over to his board and they find out that they have to post 50-60 posts in order to use a feature that's been readily provided for them on my board, they'll most likely stay away unless that message board is soooo active and soooo much better that they'd be willing to do it anyway.When I signed up at SitePoint two years ago I was not intimidated by people with large posts counts or high ammounts of reputation points, as I'm sure the vast majority of people weren't. Instead, I couldn't wait to get to the 100 post plateau so I could get another marking under my name. The ranks actually encouraged me to post more, and post faster. Similarly, the reputation system has encouraged me to make the most useful, and helpful posts I can, and helps foster a stronger community by encouraging people to let others know when they have been helped (which makes people feel good and want to help more).
I get PMs all the time from new members asking why they can't upload a custom avatar. You know what happens after I tell them you need 25 posts for a custom avatar? The vast majority of them try very hard to get to 25 posts. Incentivized forum activity is a VERY GOOD thing and will help you build your community.
I cater mostly to adults and the college crowd, and these groups don't like to be treated like children. "If you be a good boy, you'll get a nice cookie!" They're experienced veterans when it comes to forums; they know what message boards should and shouldn't provide them immediately after they register. They've been "desensitized" to the features provided by the many forums and website communities they've been involved with. Just give it to them.
Nice guys always finish last.
Still waiting for you to show us where you've used these methods to great success.
Peter T Davis
Coin Forum - Politics Forum - History Forum - Stamp Forum - SHTF Forum
I buy forums - (Special Education Forum)
I like your different ideas Crooked Peck. It's refreshing to get new ideas, even if you might not agree with them. Often I'll take elements of ideas I find on here and combine them into my own agenda. Nice work.
Hello,
I'm not sure if you're just trying to anger people or what, but... (quoting just the headers)
I. Rob the Competition Blind
This is horrible. Horrible. The fact that you say "except the moderators and admins" shows that you know you are doing something wrong. Pose as a member of the forum they are currently on that is long gone? Lie? How about saying that the admin is an idiot, as well? I've had users do that. Purposely do something wrong, purposely lie? Terrible.
This is not about perceived results. This is about what's right and wrong and having respect for your fellow community administrator. If you are able to do this and actually consider yourself to be a decent human being, I have to say that something is wrong and it will catch up to you.
I (and other community administrators) work very hard for their userbases. It is a sad thing when people don't respect this. My communities are where they are through hard work. Not by being unethical. People try to take advantage of this hard work in the way that you describe and it makes me sick. I get questions from people who want it easy... "how did you get so many users?" Two words: hard work. This stuff isn't handed to you.
Bare in mind that if I caught you spamming my users through devious means, I would ban your site from ever being mentioned on my site again.
II. Disallow advertisement of other message boards or site’s that have message boards.
WHAT?! You want to steal the users that other administrators have busted their butts for and then you don't allow people to advertise on your forum? Given your stance, you should allow people to spam the heck out of your forum.
The "pimple faced scrub that lives in his mom's basement that steals your members" would do exactly what you outlined in idea I.
VI. Find the crazy and comical board member!
Depends on the goal of your community. We have User Guidelines and they must be abided by. As long as their craziness and humor falls within them, there is no problem.
VII. Post conversationally controversial topics
I've banned political and religious discussions from all but 2 of my 5 communities, so that limits that. Being controversial to be controversial is in poor taste.
VIII. Don’t be a friendly or talkative Admin/Moderator
I have to disagree. Part of creating a good enviroment is creating an enviroment where moderators and administrators are approachable, real people. I can't recall ever seeing any favoritism on any of my forums ever. I run 5 forums with something like 500,000 posts and 30-40 members of staff. Can't recall one instance. If it happened, I'd squash it and correct it, of course. I don't care about perceived favoritism. You can't please everyone. If they said I was buddy buddy with such and such and wouldn't drop it, most likely they'd be banned.
Fairness will be questioned no matter what. No matter what.
Welcome your new members: personal greetings!
Administrators and moderators shouldn't be talkative and friendly, but they should send a personal welcoming private message to new users with the sincerest appreciation for having them join? That's not consistent. The nature of a personal welcome greeting is being friendly.
I'm sorry, but most of the things you suggest will lead to trouble.
Patrick O'Keefe, iFroggy Network
Author, Managing Online Forums and Monetizing Online Forums
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It's not inconsistent. You're sending one welcome message that's 1.) automated, and 2.) formal. You're not being personal or buddy-buddy with the new member, just acting as a neutral guide, telling them what your message board is about and what threads to look up.Welcome your new members: personal greetings!
Administrators and moderators shouldn't be talkative and friendly, but they should send a personal welcoming private message to new users with the sincerest appreciation for having them join? That's not consistent. The nature of a personal welcome greeting is being friendly.
LOL @ this guy calling these methods "trouble" when he has an avatar of that crook P. Diddy.
Still waiting for you to show us where you've used these methods to great success.
Peter T Davis
Coin Forum - Politics Forum - History Forum - Stamp Forum - SHTF Forum
I buy forums - (Special Education Forum)
Show us a forum, full of cheaters who always finish first.Nice guys always finish last.
And if you can find one I'll show you 5 other forums, including Sitepoint where webmasters used ethical methods to succeed.
This has become a nice discussion about forum ethics, might copy this to my forums *j/k*
Oh well Crook, right after my initial reply you state that karma is useless. Please read the post I might before that one, just to tell you the opposite.
Though you have started a very nice, deep-going discussion... wich can also work wonders for any website and forum.
I've answered this before.
One, what sense would it make for me to share "shady" advice, one of which includes acquiring members through the member list of other forums, and then provide a link to any of MY boards? I'm going to show people how to jack cars and then invite them to my garage? How to pick pockets and bring them over to business dinner? Riiiight.Crooked Peck wants to help everyone’s forum to succeed, but I’m not going to get any of my banks robbed. No sir! I believe in Karma, so if it's going to get ole Crooked Peck, it's going to do it through no help of mine.
If this, in any way, undermines my credibility or the veracity of my posts, then so be it. Don’t listen to me; don’t follow any of the instructions; and continue to use the more every day practices employed and diligently advertised by the more “ethical” and “honest” members of this forum who try to imply that they’ve never indulged in any shady practices in relation to their forums.
Also, it doesn’t take a genius or someone with a clean record to know that these methods will work. You’re contacting members, asking them to check your forum, and paying no money in the process. Conceptually to you—and in practice to me—it is sound. You, along with some of the highly esteemed members here, simply have issues with the means and will do whatever or say whatever to put a stain on them, with your aired out skepticism and cynical remarks. You may not admit to it, but that’s what your intent is.
Hey, I have nothing to lose or gain by sharing the information. My theory: nothing great is founded on honest practice. Religion, businesses, world powers, nations, etc. Same with message boards. Do whatever it takes to make it great.
Take it or leave it, Boss.
Last edited by Crooked Peck; Mar 22, 2005 at 12:37.
Maybe you should look at the biggest forums on the internet: www.go-gaia.com
I have followed them from the beginning, even worked with them. They have never made false posts, deleted url's to other boards and other unethical things. They haven't even spammed other boards, though their own board is full of spam nowadays.
The company behind those great forums is a full 100% clean, they have never done anything illegal or unethical.
Crooked perk is the name like in Crooked Cops?
heh thats funny, since you said your methods arent unethicalI've answered this before.
I'm going to show people how to jack cars and then invite them to my garage? How to pick pockets and bring them over to business dinner? Riiiight.
Anyways, thanks for the advice satan, i'm going to have to listen to the other shoulder though, sorry
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