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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Listen, nobody was being uptight.

    And if you honestly believe that tried and true design standards, teh recommendations of professionals and speakers teh world over and the general consensus among designers simply to be daft just becuase your site will do it better than anyone else before me... Well, I'm sorry it's everyone else in the world who is crazy and not you.

    I understand the want and desire to be unique, but let's face it there are much more freeing and engaging ways of doing it then by doing justified center.

    If you want to be aggressive, don't want to listen and want to be plain contrary when several people point out a MINOR design deficiency, go for it, but don't expect sympathy if you get less than stellar #'s of posts next time you request a review.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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    Twitter: @jeremywright

  2. #27
    SitePoint Zealot praveen's Avatar
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    Good design and Color Combination.

  3. #28
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    There are a few issues that make tables pretty much always better than frames:

    -Linking: frames make linking to individual pages in a site drastically more difficult. If the user is advanced enough, he will be able to copy the url from a link and send it to someone else, but most users won't think to do this. Even then, the url will not load the frameset unless you specifically add javascript code to check for this.

    -Efficiency: frames take up a constant amount of space in the user's window, so the interface or whatever is in the frames will always be visible. This is inefficient because the user does not need to see these items constantly. Since the site content should be what the user is primarily interacting with, this space would be better utilized if it the content could use it.

    -Control: frames are essentially an issue of control. By using frames the designer denies control of that area of the screen to the user and forces a static document to go there. With tables, the user maintains control over the entire browser screen.

    -Popularity: frames were somewhat popular 4 years ago, when they were new and innovative, but frames are very much out of style this millennium. If you look at designers' sites, you will find very few that use frames. Sitepoint for example, could obviously have chosen to go with frames, but used tables instead; maybe someone from SP could give an argument or two. Of course, popularity is not necessarily a good gauge of quality, but one can infer that there are logical design reasons for why frame usage is so low, such as the ones I have given.

  4. #29
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Here we go again...............

    Studiococo,
    I've no intention of turning this into a slanging match. For a start there's no point in arguing with somebody who wears blinkers, which is what you appear to do.

    First you made the comment that, whilst you can see the reason I included my top frame, 'the users don't necessarily gain from the experience'. Your words. However (and I just know you're going to hate me for saying it) this is something you, yourself, have on your site - along with a bottom frame. The only difference is that you have an email address in the bottom frame and the logo in your top frame links to your index page. Big deal.

    Then you made the comment about my 'centre scrolling'. Again something you have on your site. You refer to is as centre-left scrolling, but which ever way you look at it, and whether you have your text left aligned, right aligned or centered, you have a scrollbar in the center frame just like me.

    Basically, take away your left-hand frame that has your navigation links in it, and your site's layout is much the same as mine. The only difference being that some of my content is centred and I justified the reasons behind that.

    Critics don't bother me. Hypocrites do.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Linking: Not true, view www.studiococo.com... we use frames and users can bookmark specific pages (not all, just certain ones).

    Efficiency: This is a matter of opinion, I personally feel that in certain situations it is more efficient from a user perspective to have certain info available at all times (menu for instance). Some people have alleviated this by having "back to top" arrows all over the place, or a floating point menu or whatever. In terms of "inefficient because the user doesn't need to see these items all the time", well, that's a matter of opinion becuase it's incredibly efficient if a user does need to find those items.

    Control: Oooh, not control... I mean, CSS is therefore evil. Come on, frames aren't about control but about trying to look towards the needs of the user (ideally, not normally though).

    Popularity: Ease. It was abused. Just as mouse-trailers suck becuase they were abused (bad examples, mouse trailers just plain suck).

    However, I'm gonna try and not be nit-picky since you said "nearly always" instead of always.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Oh, how sweet I'm being flamed I feel truly accepted now.

    Thanx so much chicky
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Listen, here's the scoop, I'm behind frames as a concept, but feel that the line is a dangerous one to cross.

    In your design the logo and nav are separate elements which do not form a cohesive whole.

    Fullness, consistency and cohesiveness are all keys to design and your site doesn't have these YET.

    And, though my site may have some of the same "features" as yours, implentation is decidedly different. A side example would be everyone bashing your use of frames, and everyone not mine. Doesn't mean I by nature am better, just that I hit the ball properly on this run.

    Further, the bottom frame has a much greater purpose than that. The entire user skinning system is contained in that frame as well (not yet released to general public) which includes the ability to customize all of the graphix in teh site for yourself based on existing templates.

    Granted it COULD be done on left frame, but market testing showed it was more readily received on teh bottom as bottom frames are generally viewed by audiences much like terminal frames "Only want to go there when I need to".

    Your complaint with the bottom frame currently "only having an email" stems from another piece of market research. If a user sees a link in teh nav, they hope that it will lead to a page. It leading to an email link (that they haven't asked for) is often cause for a slight pause by the user, whereas testing showed that an actual email address link both "burned" the address into users minds and let them know it was there if they needed it without hiding anything.

    If you really want to go to blows with this we can, but I've already said 3 TIMES in this thread that I thought you had done well.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  8. #33
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    Jesus christ settle down.

    Saz: I don't think it was appropriate for you to try to justify your site by saying that studiococo's site does the same thing. Studiococo is allowed to give his opinion even if he doesn't always abide by it. Keep in mind that we are trying to do you a favor by commenting on your site, and the reviewer's site is not the issue.

    studiococo: the point Saz is making is that you told him not to center his content, and not to have a middle scroller, but you have those on your site. Although I don't agree that Saz should have brought it up in the first place, he does have a point that you are being hypocritical.

  9. #34
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    One more comment and then I'm done with this...........

    Less of the "Chicky"

    By the time I was your age, I was serving the in the Army Intelligence Corps as a Data Analyst. I could fire, accurately too I might add, a 9mm pistol, a sub machine gun, a 12 and a 20 bore shot gun and an SLR (self loading rifle) and run/march 8 miles in full combat kit and carrying a weapon in under 2 hours - something many man failed to complete.

    You're lucky you live in Canada. Any man dares to refer to me in that tone to my face ends up singing soprano.


    PS....Anarchos....if you haven't sussed it after reading this post......I'm a SHE!!
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  10. #35
    You talkin to me? Anarchos's Avatar
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    Ah, sorry about that; I generally assume that someone is a man until it's explicitly stated otherwise.

    But I don't think anyone cares about your army escapades or how many nazis you killed back in WWII. These contribute nothing to the debate.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    saz: And you're point being? At my age I finished top of my class in special corps, top of my class in basic training, top of my class in SRU (special retrieval unit) training, then threw my back out and design for a living instead. Don't boast, it makes your cheeks flush Further, I have the utmost respect for women as a whole (ask any I know) and the "chick" or "chicky" is meant as a sign of friendship.

    Anarchose: I wasn't a poster who said middle scrolling was wrong. My post was that middle alignment and middle scrolling leant a "weak" feal to the site in her case. Further, I wasn't saying the concept was wrong, I was saying that by making the nav part of the logo (interface design) she would have a stronger site. This would automatically drop the bottom bar anyways.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  12. #37
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    The point I'm trying to make, Studiococo, is that female I may be, but girly I'm not. You say the term 'Chicky' is a friendly one. Well it may be to you. To me it comes over as condescending, particularly when the person using it is so much younger than me. OK?

    And I'm going to say this one more time about my nav bar....

    The reason it's down the bottom is because not many sites have a nav bar at the bottom. If you think it's weak, fair enough. It's just your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, putting the nav bar at the top along with the title banner would make my site look like SOOOOO many others out there which is why I didn't do it.

    As I said before, I've never been the type of person to do anything because people said I should. I do make a note of what they say, but unless I personally feel that what they are suggesting is right for me, I don't do it. You could tell me 'til you're blue in the face to move my nav bar and left align ALL my contents and I still won't do it. It has nothing to do with wanting an amateur design. It's how I want it. And to go back to what you said earlier about "if everyone here is saying the same thing, odds are your users are thinking it (or most of them are)", erm......you're wrong. I've been told by many people - pro's included - that my site is clean, well laid out, easy to navigate and generally pleasant to look at. If I'm getting feedback like that, why change it just because some people think I should?
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Whatever, maybe you should have had a disclaimer then "everything is just as I want it, go ahead and tell me stuff anyways".

    "Even pros"... I'm sliced meat? *L* Listen, professional doesn't mean right by default. I know many professionals who get stuff wrong every day (myself included). Anyways, good luck on your site, but if you don't really want opinions on certain things, say so.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  14. #39
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by studiococo
    if you don't really want opinions on certain things, say so.
    I did!
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for using frames, as so many people here hate them, but I'm not too fussed about that, and as far as the 'over all look' of the site goes I'm happy (although any feedback there will be appreciated)!
    The above isn't a "don't talk to me about" statement, just that so far your comments and your opinions seem to think you are right, which is cool, however we're entitled to our opinions as well.

    And, after having unjustifiably been called a hypocrite twice in this thread, I'm inclined to generally ditch it entirely.

    If educated and professional designers can't point out minor flaws in your design, nor are you open to comment on areas simply because "I want to be different", I'm not entirely sure what that says about your professionalism or your open-mindedness.

    "hypocrite" is entirely uncalled for. I've stated 3 times in this thread that I thought your IMPLEMENTATION was wrong, not the very fact of having a centre scroller. I also stated twice that it was a minor issue. I stated 4 times now that I like it and still you come after me, someone who is just trying to bring your site from "nice" to "kicking". So sorry, maybe I won't try so damn hard next time, eh?
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  16. #41
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    The reason I 'came after you', as you put it, was because you declared center scrolling to be amateurish, yet you class yourself as a professional and do the very same thing yourself. Whether you like it or not, that IS hypocritical.

    Right, I don't want to get into fights and petty squabbles - it's honestly not worth it. However, all that said, comments like "professionals don't do it, and if you want to appear professional you shouldn't do it either" really get on my nerves.

    Web designing is not about who is right and who is wrong. To me it's about creative freedom......artistic licence if you like. The way things are going at the moment, so many people are so hooked up on the idea of making their sites appear "professional" that they're copying the layouts already set down by other pro's, consequently setting some kind of unofficial standard. Ok, granted.....tried and tested works. What is it they say? "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". Well that's fine if that's how you want to be, but those who don't shouldn't be criticised for it.

    I've seen sites on here where people have 'dared to be different', and you nearly always get at least one person come up and say "Oh, you shouldn't do it like that.....web surfters aren't used to it" or "That's not something pro's do. If you want it to look professional you have to change that". Why should they? And what right do professionals have to class something as amateur because it's not the way they choose to create their sites?

    Having centred scolling, a bottom nav bar or items on a page aligned centre are not design flaws. Flaws in design are things like table content getting misaligned when the browser window is resized or style sheets not being cross browser compatible. These are things I look for when I review another site. I may well comment on colour schemes and overall layout - some I've liked, some I haven't - but I've always stated that it's just my opinion and I've NEVER told anybody that they were wrong to design the site the way they have. I don't have the right to do that and neither does anybody else.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    FOURTH TIME:

    It is not the actual feature we are discussing which I felt was amateurish on your site but he implementation.

    Is my post being translated into some foreign language whereby the meaning to the above is hidden?

    Further, for the THIRD time I'm stating that it wasn't the centre frame in and of itself that I felt was weak but the combination of that and a "weak" alignement style (centered).

    As far as professionals having some weird standard that's a load of BS. You can be entirely creative and still adhere to standards and tried and true. You aren't trying anything new, in case you hadn't realised it, I can point out a dozen sites just by browsing geocities that use a centre frame, after all it's one of the STANDARD (third from teh top I think) frontpage options for frames!

    If you wanted to be truly creative you would try something that hadn't been done before, or seomthing that had and do it differently. None of the above applies in your case. I've stated at least twice in this trhead that what you are doing I've seen and it didn't work then and doesn't work in this case either.

    Which brings us to "dared to be different". If it ain't different, there is no daring, there is just blind "I wanna try this" which is fine but it gives you no right to then try and ward off commments.

    Which brings us to the list of features you're complaing about, and I've already said it's not the features but the implementation, there is no problem having a centre frame, some of the best sites I work with have centre frames NO PROBLEM, however I felt YOUR implementation was simply off, needed some work and I SUGGESTED a solution.

    You THEN "came after me" saying that you could do whatever the hell you want that you saw on a professional site, do it worse and if a pro complained you could call them a hypocrite. I have a background image. If you had a background image that absolutely sucked, does that mean I can't comment on it? No of course not. It's not that background images in and of themselves are wrong, just that the implementation and presentation isn't what it should be. If I used arial font and your arial font was too big, does that mean that arial is evil? No, just that the font size needs to come down.

    Therefore, before you get into some high and mighty bloody hissy fit, stop and think about what you are saying and what I've said. What I've said:

    1. Your site is nice (remember?!!!)
    2. Center alignment is weak (it is, no need to justify this)
    3. I felt, and still do, that your center alignment WITH the centre frame accentuate the above weakness
    4. By reworking the site structure/layout I feel you could still have a centre frame or even bottom nav and still have it work (even with centre text).

    So, either get bent and read what I've actually said over and over and over and over, or get a bloody life. You think you're on some kind of righteous cause to improve the web by pushing some imaginary envelope? Yes, people who push the envelope get burnt more often than not beucase their new ideas often go over other lines entirely (www.derbauer.de is an amazing flash site in terms of motion, etc. They push that envelope. However, the file size is limiting. That is what people complain about with them) however those people are actually pushing real lines consciously.

    I highly doubt you sat down and said to yourself "You know what, centre scrolling with centre justification is what is really missing in the web. I feel it will really ad something and contribute to the internet and design communities as a whole, I'm going to try it and let's see what comes of it".

    I honestly feel it is more likely that you just decided to try it, realised it was different and have just stuck to your guns in teh face of adversity all the way to saying "you all who don't like it, you know what, I don't care. I'm on a true and righteous cause to improve the web" without ever asking yourself how centre scrolling or center alignement are expressing yourself creatively or helping anyone.

    How does a centre frame express yourself?

    How does centrally justified text improve the web?
    Last edited by Jeremy W.; Jun 7, 2001 at 07:38.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  18. #43
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    This really is getting tiresome............

    I think you seem to be the one who's getting high and mighty here and not reading everything already said.

    For a start, I've lost count of the number of times I've said that only parts of my web content are centred - and for a reason - and that bulk text is left aligned.

    I didn't just decide to try centre alignment and left it because I felt it was different - because I was on some crusade to change the web, and neither did I sit down and think "You know what, centre scrolling with centre justification is what is really missing in the web. I feel it will really add something and contribute to the internet and design communities as a whole, I'm going to try it and let's see what comes of it". I've already given my reasons for laying the site out the way I have. The bottom nav bar because you don't get it very often. The top title frame because I wanted to site to appear as just that...framed. The centre alignment with some of the content because left aligning it gave too much white space to the right with any res higher than 800x600.

    I never once claimed this layout to be new and never seen before. I said it was different.......meaning you don't see it very often, which you don't as most people at the moment are putting their sites into tables. For all the sites I've looked at, very very few have had a nav bar at the bottom, which is why I decided that's what I wanted. There was no blind "I wanna try this". As to your comment about it being one of the frames options in Frontpage, I wouldn't know. Whilst I use FP to put my sites together at the moment, I don't go any where near their templates, as I build my sites from scratch, hand coding where possible so that I don't end up with loads of unnessary tags. (And don't start with the FP v Dreamweaver thing....been there done that in several other threads and that too is getting boring).

    You go on about merely offering a solution because you felt my implementation was off. So what if you think it is. As I said, I would never tell somebody they're layout was wrong - I don't have the right to. NOBODY has the right to decide what IS right or wrong. If you like what somebody else has done fine...say so. If you don't like it say so. But at the end of the day it's just your opinion and there's no right or wrong about it.

    At the end of the day, the point I'm trying to make here is that everybody has the right to lay out their sites the way they want to without being told they are wrong. Which, despite what you say, is what you've told me. You can dress it up as much as you like, but you still come across with an "I am right, you are wrong" condescending attitude, which I can't abide.

    I'll admit your first post was not in that manner at all. I just found it amusing that you commented on my centre scrolling as being amateur when you have a centre scroll bar yourself. The 's in my following post were supposed to indicate a light-hearted response but you seemed to see it as some scathing attack and hit back at me. As I'm not the type to sit back and let it go, I bit back and it's snowballed from there, culminating in me thinking your nothing but arrogant and condescending and you thinking I'm on some kind of crusade to change the world by using align="center" in my websites, when in reality neither of of us are. Well, I know I'm not. I can't speak for you here. Are you always this arrogant? (note the smiley face - it represents the fact that I was smiling when I typed this comment)
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Whatever, you think I'm trying to say you're wrong again and again and I wasn't, simply that my opinion was that you could do it BETTER, not that you're wrong in any way. Everyone has the right to experiment but rights come with responsibilities. One such responsibility is when you try something new people will comment on it.

    If I came across as [x] it wasn't intended, I've had the flu the last few days so that wasn't really my intention.

    Either way, I'll say it one last time, I like your bloody site :P
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  20. #45
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Either way, I'll say it one last time, I like your bloody site :P
    Hey now....mind your language infront of us elders

    Seriously though, I think this should be the end of it, don't you.............

    Truce?
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    for now
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  22. #47
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    U-huh..........like that is it? <thinks>poor guy doesn't have a clue what he's letting himself in for</thinks>
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!


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