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Thread: US gun laws

  1. #101
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Did you know McVeigh was a military man?
    Served his country, was even asigned to protect your General in the Gulf...

  2. #102
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    I am an avid shooter. Hunter? Nope. Shooter? Yep.

    Why do I own guns? Because I don't care what country you are in, you cannot depend on the Government to protect you from an evil person.

    Every crime that is perpetrated on any human being(rape, murder, assault etc..) will always have two factors associated with it.

    #1)The police weren't there
    #2)The person did not have a firearm

    I believe that humans have certain rights that cannot be taken away, among these is the right to defend yourself and your family.

    So yes, guns are for killing. And anyone who finds themselves at the wrong end of mine has put THEMSELVES there. I kept it holstered until I was threatened.

    The other argument is that the right to own guns protects the right to free speech. The first protects the second.

    According to ALL of the founders of this nation the Government should always fear the people. When guns are gone, it is soon the people who fear the Government (we are getting close to this already).

    Look at history. Never was there a Government who took full control and promised to protect everyone that did not become corrupt and power hungry. Do we think that because we're "so advanced" that history will not repeat itself? Get real.

    So, guns protect me and my family. They protect our right to live free. And - they protect me from tyranny.

    They are the great keepers of our American society. They are responsible for EVERYTHING we Americans hold dear.
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  3. #103
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    Originally posted by heavy

    The other argument is that the right to own guns protects the right to free speech. The first protects the second.
    I'm sorry to laugh but this type of looney logic forms part of the stereotypical view of American society amongst non-Americans.

    I don't know how we manage to live under such repressive governments in other countries such as where I reside where no-one has any automatic right to bear arms.

    Does it not seem obvious that your logic condones the actions of the late Mr McVeigh? Was he not following what you suggest is his constitutional right to protect himself from the government? Condoning the legitimacy of militia is more a trait of a banana republic.

    Why is sitepoint attracting such fruitcakes lately?
    Last edited by freakysid; Jun 12, 2001 at 21:17.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Heavy, I fully understand and appreiciate the American peoples stance on Guns but I fear those priveledges are soon going to be taken from you...

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23196

    http://www.infowars.com/saved%20page...ent/50_cal.htm

  5. #105
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    By concidence, I have just stopped by redmeat.com to get my weekly fill of red meat. Gun toting patriots will appreciate this week's serve (5th June) http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/current/index.html

  6. #106
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    As far as McVeigh is concerned, I am glad he is dead.

    I do not support him in any way. I can identify with his motive but his action is far from me. It was wrong. 100%

    Yeah, your country may be OK now, but what about your children or grandchildren? It is the natural progression for Governments to become more repressive and controlling. Once they start telling you what you can and cannot do in your own home are you free?

    Can a person be free if they cannot protect their property? Can you be free if a Government can take your property? I think not.

    The standard of freedom that was set up by our Constitution has been eroded year by year for the last 100 years by men of selfish motive who hold one of three positions:

    1)They have selfish motives and will seek power and fame anyway possible by telling people what they want to hear and making them feel good.
    2)They do not know history repeats itself and therefore think they can overcome the natural progression of Governmental rule. These think that in this advanced society, the basic behaviors of humans can be changed away from greed and power and that a Government in this age will not act as they have in the past.
    3)The kind that know history will repeat itself. This is what they hope for. Some kind of socialistic utopia. These are dreamers who are not smart enough to figure out that people in power will not limit themselves in the exercise of that power. Government will get out of control but they are denying that reality thinking they can avoid the pitfalls of the past.


    Yeah, everythings hunky right now. What happens if you get some radical people in power? What happens if some new leader wants to bind you with unfair shakles of unjust laws? What happens when you must give 80% of your living to different taxes and they want more?

    You think these things cannot happen? Get real. Wake up.
    You guys have no way of overcoming evil should it set itself upon ruling your country. What will the coming generations think of you? The cowards who were too clumsy to handle guns safely and to weak to fight to protect them.

    Yes, guns are made for killing. Why do you think that in the last 150 years no country has ever invaded the US? We are armed. I don't care how big the army, you cannot defeat an armed nation.

    To make things more practical, let's look at everyday life. If each person were armed, who would get mugged or raped?

    Who would you attack if all were armed?

    An armed socitey is a polite society. With the decrease of personal gun ownership we have seen an increase in violent crime.

    Please, don't give me this socialistic garbage when you cannot see past the end of your nose. History is the predictor of the future. If you are to ignorant to see that your great country is a temporary establishment, you shouldn't have any rights at all. For all of them are a threat to your precious utopia.
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  7. #107
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    Thanks for the link z7.

    You see, they are trying to ban these "evil" 50 cal. sniper rifles for safety reasons.

    Ha! How often are people being sniped by these guns? Never.

    Why would these need to be outlawed, they present no threat to them. They are never used in crimes.

    They are bought by people who like to shoot them.

    They want to outlaw this gun for the sake of making it illegal. That's all. There is no other reason.
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  8. #108
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    How about when your own government attacks you? (Ruby Ridge innit)

  9. #109
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
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    I have a (verified) quote somewhere where, when the Japanese were suggesting invading the Continental US (or Hawaii) someone half-jokingly said:
    "We can't do that, there would be a rifle behind every bush and in every home!"

    One of the reasons an invasion of mainland Japan would've been so costly in terms of US casualties was because almost every citizen owned a weapon and were trained to use it and even further to fight to the death.

    When private citizens holding valid state-issued concealed-firearm permits (which are available in 42 states, to become 43 on July 1), fire shots at human targets in lawful self-defense, they on average hit a bystander instead, with two per cent of shots fired. On the other hand, when U. S. police officers fire shots at human targets in accordance with their agencies' deadly-force policies, they hit bystanders, on average, with eleven per cent of shots fired.

    Another interesting fact from USDOJ is that when private citizens shows or draws a firearm in self-defense, in ninety-two per cent of the incidents reported, the attacker abandons the effort and no shots are fired. Few criminals want an armed victim.

    According to USDOJ:
    "Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense". (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992)

    The total Violent Crime Rate is 26% higher in the restrictive states (798.3 per 100,000 pop.) than in the less restrictive states (631.6 per 100,000).

    The Homicide Rate is 49% higher in the restrictive states (10.1 per 100,000) than in the states with less restrictive CCW laws (6.8 per 100,000).

    The Robbery Rate is 58% higher in the restrictive states (289.7 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (183.1 per 100,000).

    The Aggravated Assault Rate is 15% higher in the restrictive states (455.9 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (398.3 per 100,000).

    In the interest of improving public safety and reducing violent crime, the other 7 states need to enact legislation as soon as possible, to allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms for their own protection and that of their families.

  10. #110
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Very informative post Matt. Thanks for saving people like myself from having to do some research.

  11. #111
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Yes, isn't fear the best pro-militia argument ?
    Fear is bliss. Buy guns.
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  12. #112
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MattR

    The Homicide Rate is 49% higher in the restrictive states (10.1 per 100,000) than in the states with less restrictive CCW laws (6.8 per 100,000).
    Homicide rate in England/Wales, 1.41 per 100,000

    Homicide rate in Australia, 1.86 per 100,000 (0.44 involving firearms)

    Homicide rate in USA according to my stats is 5.7 per 100,000

    Which tends to point to a 300% increase in homicide rates in the USA as compared to these other countries with tighter gun control.

    Then again, statistics may lie

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
    Last edited by mmj; Jun 13, 2001 at 10:14.
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  13. #113
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Uhm, so my country (France) has even lower crimerates than UK, with a more important % of households with guns ? The reason to this is the hunt, which is still so much of a tradition here, that a lot of people in the country towns would buy a hunt-shotgun "just in case" they ever have the chance to go hunting. Maybe the authors of this article should have made the difference betwen handguns and shotguns...
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  14. #114
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    Hey Matt, in the article you just referenced, here are some other excerpts:

    In 1993 a Swiss professor, Martin Killias, published a study of 18 countries concerning gun ownership, homicide and suicide. He concluded there was a weak correlation between total homicide and gun ownership (total suicide rates were not significantly associated with gun levels).
    Using homicide and suicide data from a larger sample of countries, 35, (International Journal of Epidemiology 1998:27:216), Kleck found "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate in the largest sample of nations available to study this topic. (Associations with the total suicide rate were even weaker.)" (Targeting Guns, p 254.)
    The U.S. has a high gun murder rate, whereas a country like England with strict gun controls has almost no gun murders and a very low murder rate. Doesn't this show that gun control is effective in reducing murder rates? Not exactly. Prior to having any gun controls, England already had a homicide rate much lower than the United States (Guns, Murders, and the Constitution: A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control, Don B. Kates Jr.).
    Gun control opponents can play similar games. The Swiss with 7 million people have hundreds of thousands of fully-automatic rifles in their homes (see GunCite's "Swiss Gun Laws") and the Israelis, until recently, have had easy access to guns (see this Jerusalem Post article for Israeli firearms regulations or a briefer summary here). Both countries have low homicide rates.
    The U.S. has a higher non-gun murder rate than many European country's total murder rates.
    I am sure you see the significance of these quotes. I am glad this study was conducted.

    This just points out that the US is already quite more violent than most other countries. Sad, but true. But, for the sake of this argument guns do not contribute.

    Thanks for finding this article for me, it was very concrete. I now have more ammo.
    Last edited by heavy; Jun 13, 2001 at 11:39.
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  15. #115
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    Why do these subjects always seem to turn into a "My country is better than yours" type of mudslinging mess? There's quite a few variations between countries, i'm sure this has a bit of influence. I don't quite see how comparing national statistics of one country to the next offers anything to the intent of the original topic. It's pretty unlikely the US is going to adopt the laws of another nation or even that it would have the same effect upon it. Some people eat with sporks, some with chopsticks, others with their fingers.
    Everything has been figured out, except how to live. - Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

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    There's quite a bit of gun control that happens before someone owns it. While people may screw up most after this occurs, what bothers is that all the work to get one seems to be aimed at making it not worth it at all. I don't own one, simply because i've never needed one. The idea that if someone was shot in my neighborhood and the fact that there's a record showing who owns a gun there, it just seems like trouble. If it ever came to say a situation of invasion, overthrowing of the government or martians i'm sure people could find themselves a weapon. It's a big grey area, who should own a gun, half the police in the country probably shouldn't even be handling one. That saying about outlawing guns will mean only outlaws will have guns is put well. I wonder how many people with criminal intent legally own a weapon. On the other hand, if it was a lot more lax, it'd probably be like cowboys and indians all over again.
    Everything has been figured out, except how to live. - Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

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    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Hehe - sporks.

    Heavy, I think those are from the article I found. My name is not matt. I don't mind though. I did kind of want to make the point that the statistics that Matt had were contradicted by other statistics, hence the statistics are not statistically significant ie, there are so many other factors.
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    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmj
    Hehe - sporks.

    Heavy, I think those are from the article I found. My name is not matt. I don't mind though. I did kind of want to make the point that the statistics that Matt had were contradicted by other statistics, hence the statistics are not statistically significant ie, there are so many other factors.
    They weren't contradicted; the ones I provided were illustrating the changes of US states after they switched to concealed carry = legal.

  19. #119
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    No, the particular statistics weren't contradicted, because they were different statistics - but the idea that the statistics are able to prove a correlation was contradicted by these contrasting negative correlations, if you see what I mean.
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    According to USDOJ:
    "Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense". (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992)
    I figure most of the more restrictive states became more restrictive as a result of the high crime rates. It would probably be better rephrased. Maybe, "Concealed firearms are prohibited and limited in states with a higher violent crime rate."
    Everything has been figured out, except how to live. - Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)

  21. #121
    SitePoint Member Kalashnikova's Avatar
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    firearms education

    I think that firearms education should be taught in school, as well as the consequences of misusing
    a gun. Of course that will never happen. Gun control will continue to deprive honest citizens of their rights because too many people believe the rhetoric of the anti-gun forces out there. They tell you that you are safer without a gun and that if a mugger trys to rob you cooperate and you might not get hurt. It's all bull. A man killed his wife in Lynn Massachusetts on 6/12/01. She was unarmed. A man killed 7 unarmed people in Wakefield Massachusetts at the beginning of the year.
    Does anybody here know what affect the "Assault Weapon ban of 1994 had on this country?
    Does anybody really believe that semi-automatic rifles were "ON" our streets? They banned a problem that did not exist.
    Gun control is not about making our socity safer. It never has been. If it was then we would have laws designed to actually punish criminals, not target law abiding citizens and disarm them. The ATF would actually go after criminals instead of honest gun owners and gun stores and gun shows. Gun control is about power. the power of the government over the people. Mostly liberals. High crime means greater dependence on the system. If a civilian has a gun and encounters a criminal who wants to rob or kill him. That citizen has a greater chance of avoiding being robbed or killed. You don't have to shoot and kill a criminal to stop a crime from happening. How do I know? I had to draw my gun 2 times to prevent 2 women from being raped and kid napped. I did not have to shoot anybody. The fact that I was able to save 2 people makes having a gun well worth it for me. I take responsibility for my own safety. It is stupid to rely on others to protect you. The police have no legal obligation to protect you as an individual. They usually show up to clean up the blood and take the body away.
    one is backfire, three is gunplay.

  22. #122
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    Here's an article that was sent me by a buddy.

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

    I'll highlight some of the finer points.

    Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.

    The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime

    Analysts in the U.S. were quick to point out that all of the other industrialized nations included in the survey had stringent gun-control laws, but were overall much more violent than the U.S.

    WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:


    Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
    Assaults are up 8.6 percent.
    Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent.
    In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent.
    In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily.
    There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.


    Hmmm...maybe the US isn't as violent as I thought! and It does make sense, less crimes commited with guns overall - but they are simply being transferred to other kinds of killing tools.

    Yeah...looks like we really need to be like Engalnd and Australia!

    As far as the US becoming "cowboys and indians" that's absurd. Remember, that was an undeclared war. Two nations were struggling for control of the land.

    Most murders happen with illegaly owned firearms. Almost all legitimate gun owners have never killed one person or even pulled their weapon out on someone. Everyone thought Texas would be a bloodbath with loosened gun laws but the place actually got better.

    Government can never rule people as well as they can rule themselves because the responsibility is placed on the individual.

    I think every argument for gun control on this thread has been decimated.
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  23. #123
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    hey kalashnikova...you should have wasted the trash that were trying to rape the women. I wonder if they have struck again?

    You did that city a service and I'm sure those women were glad a gun owner stopped by that day.
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  24. #124
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Welcome AK - Your handle gives your leanings away just a little - could've just said "hello" really....

    H
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  25. #125
    SitePoint Member Kalashnikova's Avatar
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    Hello

    Hi everybody. This looks like a cool site. so i thought I would join. How is everybody?
    one is backfire, three is gunplay.


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