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Thread: US gun laws

  1. #76
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    No, I am not saying that deaf people are stupid.

    The hypothetical one we mention seems to be, but that is just part of the circumstance. I don't think we should criticise this guy for being stupid, and I'm not sure if you are doing so.

    Okay, so the guy is walking towards you (you are the cop) after you yelled at him. This is a strange thing to do. There is a small chance the guy may be armed, albiet a very small chance indeed. Indeed, the chance is there, and when you spot him reaching into his pants for something you realise that it could be a gun. That's true. In theory, you cannot shoot until you know it is a gun, or someone else has told you he has a gun. But in the heat of the moment, it really does depend on the circumstance, and the cop hopefully uses his best judgement.

    Unfortunately in this case the cop didn't know what to do, and shot the guy 'just in case'. It can be explained by the heat of the moment, and the bizarre behaviour of the innocent man, but not forgiven.
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  2. #77
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmj
    There is a small chance the guy may be armed, albiet a very small chance indeed.
    Exactly. A small chance where you live, but not where I live. (Why do I always feel funny when I use my name in a sentence? )

  3. #78
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MattR

    Not to be insensitive LuZer, but Japan, which has disallowed guns, has a higher per captia incidence of suicides than the US.
    And a much lower murder rate.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Whoa whoa -- you're forgetting something mmj: I'm pretty sure Wayne said the officer was sent, in this scenario, to investigate something. He's not just walking around on the street when he runs into this guy.

    And nothing, huh? Well, honestly, how often will a person IGNORE your warnings and KEEP coming at you when a gun is pointed at them, and have perfectly good intentions? Who would do this? I can't think of anyone other than someone with an intelligence problem, or someone who's looking to hurt that officer.

  5. #80
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    There is a true story, but I forget where I read it, about traffic cops pulling a guy over for some irregularity. One of them walks over and says 'put your hands on the dash', and the driver is looking straight at him and slowly moving his hand to the glovebox. The cop pulls his gun and this time shouts 'Put your hands on the dashboard!!'. The guy is still looking, and still slowly moving his hand to the glovebox. The cop actually has his gun about an inch away from the driver's body with his finger squeezing the trigger when the guy sees sense and stops moving.
    What was in the glovebox? His driver's license. He wasn't deaf, he was just on automatic pilot (perhaps fear locked him up, or whatever, he just didn't get it.)
    There's no moral to this, it just shows how 'stupid' people can be under stress.

  6. #81
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Excuse me, but I do believe I know what investigate means. TWT, you have always been polite and respectful in previous posts but I object to this patronisation.

    someone with an intelligence problem, or someone who's looking to hurt that officer
    Yes. It could be either someone with an intelligence problem, or someone who's looking to hurt the officer. Therefore the officer must be reasonably sure it is the latter before shooting.

    I feel I have been clear on this subject. In summary, the hypothetical cop made a mistake, and shot an innocent person. I don't know how one could somehow accuse the unintelligent, deaf person of recklessly endangering his own life by walking in the cop's direction, but you do, and I accept that. If it weren't for your previous post I would have been content.

    If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or reply.
    I apologise to everyone for the tone of this post.
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  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Geez, you apologize too much. I don't think anyone is upset at anything here. Relax!

    Excuse me, but I do believe I know what investigate means.
    I didn't say you didn't, but you may have missed/forgotten that the word was used there. Wasn't implying for a second that you didn't know what it meant.


    Yes. It could be either someone with an intelligence problem, or someone who's looking to hurt the officer. Therefore the officer must be reasonably sure it is the latter before shooting.
    My apologies if that was patronizing -- that was certainly not my intent. I do not wish to demean people of below-average intelligence, as many of them have no control over it: IE: they are born that way.

    However, it could also be both: a person of below average intelligence could wish to hurt the officer. I simply think there has got to be way to handle things, perhaps without firing, and definintely without just sitting there, perhaps letting a murderer walk right up to you.


    I feel I have been clear on this subject. In summary, the hypothetical cop made a mistake, and shot an innocent person. I don't know how one could somehow accuse the unintelligent, deaf person of recklessly endangering his own life by walking in the cop's direction, but you do, and I accept that. If it weren't for your previous post I would have been content.
    Well, do we know that to be the case? Is the person in the scenario supposed to be unintelligent as well as deaf? Seems too convienent to me. I mean come on: he's deaf, and he's so naive that he keeps walking at him?

    Unintelligent people also know what a gun does, most of the time. My 5 year old sister knows what it does, and if someone is pointing it at her, would probably know to stop. Please remember that even if the person is unintelligent AND deaf, they still may very well know better than to keep walking.

    Now, do they deserve to be shot for this? No, of course not. However, I don't think the alternative of sitting there and letting this person walk up to you is a good idea either.

    So basically, this person would have to be incapable of hearing, incapable of reading lips (I don't know how many deaf people are capable of this, but I would be surprised if it were all that rare), AND this person has to be unintelligent to level of not realizing that they ought to stop when a police officer opens his mouth (yelling something they can't hear), and points a gun at them.

    Seems like too many oddities thrown into one scenario.

  8. #83
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Ok, no worries. I'm okay now.

    I don't think anyone's saying this is not an unusual situation. It is. There wouldn't be many people that keep walking towards someone who is pointing a gun at them. Not many people. Maybe some, but what are the chances?

    Very low, as you have said.

    In other words, I DO know what you are saying, and I do accept these to be truths.

    The only thing I am unclear upon is whether or not you feel that this deaf person is at fault. It seems that you are implying that he is. Is this correct?

    I'm not accusing you of saying that he _deserved_ to die, because it was a given at the start of this discussion that the deaf guy was innocent.

    Now, do they deserve to be shot for this? No, of course not. However, I don't think the alternative of sitting there and letting this person walk up to you is a good idea either.
    You seem to be saying here that neither of these alternatives (shooting, doing nothing) are satisfactory. Have you considered other alternatives? I am not a cop and have never pointed a gun at a person, so I really don't know what I'd do, but at a guess I think that further alternatives would be to either
    - wait a bit longer and find out if the guy is dangerous
    - bring this guy to the ground using self-defence techniques, or a truncheon, and search him
    - run away
    - use crowd control techniques such as capsicum spray

    Feel free to comment on these.

    The fourth one may be far-fetched, but I believe the first three, in my not so informed opinion, to be suitable ways of handling the situation. When confronted by a stranger, I have been taught to run away. Other self-defence strategies are only to be used if running away is not possible. It is better to appear cowardly and run away than to be attacked by a deaf person (that's only a joke, peoples).
    Last edited by mmj; May 21, 2001 at 07:50.
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  9. #84
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    At fault? No, I do not fault a person for being deaf, unable to read lips, and very unintelligent. I do, however, fault this scenario for expecting the officer to rely on all these bizzare, rare coincidences to "pass" -- in my opinion, the officer should fail the same test if he allows the person to walk within "stabbing distance", or however else you want to say "too close for comfort."

    Maybe mace is the way to go -- although once again, we don't know what the officer has with him/her.

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Ack, edited post: confused me.

    As you'll see in the post before this one, I mentioned that we don't really know what else this officer is armed with. If something like pepper spray is available, it might be a good idea.

    However, even that has to allow for the suspect to get pretty close. Close enough to hit him or stab him I would think -- I havn't used pepper spray, but I'm fairly sure that it's range is pretty short.

    I don't like the idea of the officer running. We can't have people just walking straight towards an officer despite being ordered to stop and having a gun pointed at them, and expect the officer to just retreat. What if he's by his car? Does he leave the car there for the suspect to enter/mess around with? I don't think it's a good idea.

    Not only that, but it seems to me that someone who is both deaf, cannot read lips, and is low enough in terms of intelligence that he doesn't think to stop when someone yells and points a gun at him should really have a caretaker of some sort, and shouldn't be out by a train station.

    Once again, we come to lack of info: is this person lost, and looking for their caretaker/guardian?

    I don't like any of the alternatives: shooting the person, waiting for them to get close and use a club or mace, or running away. How about a warning shot to the side of the person? Would that get the attention of a deaf person? If the cop is properly trained, I think they would be able to fire a warning somehow without any problem.

    Basically, I don't know what I would do. I would probably end up using pepper spray if the person kept on coming, but that might not be the best course of action. If you use common sense, the person is more likely to be there to hurt you, or intoxicated, than they are likely to be deaf, uintelligent, etc.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    Was this post edited or something? I've been trying to catch up to speed, but can't find my last post.
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    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    I think seriously wounding {by that I mean so that the aggressor can no longer travel forward} the deaf man is the optimum solution. Killing the man is not necessary but if it happened IMHO it would be justified. Just to also make a point here, Officers do not have the luxury of fleeing intense situations. It is there job to maintain order and display strength when confronted. The deaf man is most certainly the one in the wrong in this scenario. Just because he was to stupid to see his mistake doesn’t make him any less wrong. Ignorance of one's surroundings does not absolve him from abiding by the norms of society. In reality the card should have read ‘Hello i'm deaf and to stupid to realize that I have a life threatening weapon pointed at me’
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    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent
    I think seriously wounding {by that I mean so that the aggressor can no longer travel forward} the deaf man is the optimum solution. Killing the man is not necessary but if it happened IMHO it would be justified. Just to also make a point here, Officers do not have the luxury of fleeing intense situations. It is there job to maintain order and display strength when confronted. The deaf man is most certainly the one in the wrong in this scenario. Just because he was to stupid to see his mistake doesn’t make him any less wrong. Ignorance of one's surroundings does not absolve him from abiding by the norms of society. In reality the card should have read ‘Hello i'm deaf and to stupid to realize that I have a life threatening weapon pointed at me’
    So i am taking it by the lack of response that you all agree with me =)
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  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I stopped paying attention a page ago or so. Yeah, I agree. Isn't a shot to the leg almost always going to be a temporary injury? How many people are deaf and on the loose with a mental defeciency? 5 in the entire country, if even that?
    Last edited by TWTCommish; Jun 5, 2001 at 17:48.

  15. #90
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Isn't a shot to the leg almost always going to be a temporary injury?
    Temporary enough to stop someone walking in your general direction, I presume.
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  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant temporary as in it's very unlikely to cause permanent damage? It seems to me that when you weigh the options, the person is INCREDIBLY likely to be trying to harm you in some way. What are the odds that they're mentally deficient, deaf, not able to read lips, and on the loose (IE: not with a caretaker, as a mentally deficient deaf would likely have)? It's got to be less than one in a million man.

    I agree: stop them from coming at you, don't kill them if you can in ANY way avoid it.

  17. #92
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent


    So i am taking it by the lack of response that you all agree with me =)
    Hellbent, although you are probably not serious, you cannot assume this.

    Anybody who has stated their opinions and arguments have done so, and are not going to do so again. The fact that they are not repeating themselves does not mean that they have changed their minds. It probably means that they feel they have said all that can be said.
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  18. #93
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I used to think the US Gun laws were totally stupid but that was till I went over there and let off a few shotguns - YEEEEHAAAAAW!

    On a serious note though, I think the US should look at making Gun Education part of their schooling - there are too many irresponsible parents out there...

  19. #94
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by z7
    On a serious note though, I think the US should look at making Gun Education part of their schooling - there are too many irresponsible parents out there...
    There is a program (NRA sponsored I think) called 'Eddie Eagle'; it teaches children gun safety, what to do when they find a gun (leave it and get a grown-up), etc.

    I don't know if it is a part of any curriculum but anyone who is a gun owner and has children should DEFINITLY teach their children these lessons along with Eddie Eagle education.

  20. #95
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Well if it isn't part of the curiculum - it should be.

    But it should be about more than that - later on they should be taught about handling a gun and the moral issues surrounding gun ownership.

  21. #96
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    I completely agree. I think 3 years service in the armed forces should be mandatory for every man and woman after high school.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  22. #97
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    This happens in Israël. Although I don't think they spend 3 years there, and aren't 3 years a bit too long ? Damn, a gun isn't your life.
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  23. #98
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    A little extreme maybe...

  24. #99
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    I think every American should be trained and ready to come to the aid of his or her country. Plus the military instill a rigid sense of discipline, Which young people in my country sorely need.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

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    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Hmmmmm.

    Have you been in the Military Hellbent?
    Last edited by z7; Jun 11, 2001 at 07:18.


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