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Thread: US gun laws

  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    The gun would be the only remotely safe option in that situation, I'd say!

    I don't think it's that convienent either -- there are lots of home break-ins. I'll bet there are more of those than purse-snatchings, which usually have to be somewhere remotely-public, and not always at night.

    But hey, let's go with that scenario too: someone steals something you're carrying, be it a purse or a briefcase or a wallet. This is probably more likely to happen at night, unless the thief is an idiot They go off running -- in such a case, a gun is going to stop them a lot better than just about any other weapon.

    I know what you might be thinking: It's overkill to shoot someone who steals something like that, but if you ask me, it's justified, especially if your purse or wallet contains important information. Besides, if you have some decent training, I don't think it'd be too tough to hit them somewhere non-lethal -- or am I way off there?

    Basically, I'm seeing instances in which guns are superior, and other instances where it's indifferent -- close-range things, where a gun or knife could do. HOWEVER: a gun is more frightening to the criminal (would you rather stab someone, or have them put their hands in the air?).

    If all we have is the gun being better in some situations, and equal in others, it sounds far from "laughable" to use for protection, IMO.

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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    The reason I sugest that it is laughable is not it's inneficiency (although that is true at v close range), but becuase it has the unfortunate side effect of instilling false confidence. Nasty confrontations are not something you can "train" for, fact. You have to experience them, again and again, to come even close to being desensitised. If you have not got that experience, then all of your super efficient "gun training" is going to be utterly useless. It is then that you are dangerous to both yourself and others. Shooting people who are running away "way off", er, yes...just a tad. People who snatch bags like that do it out of desperation - bearing in mind your charitable comments earlier, I find it hard to believe that you consider shooting them to get back some property a sensible or acceptable course of action. Your property is not worth someones life or their fitness (even a well placed shot is liable to leave them a little lame). Often these people are not "bad", but desperate. - How do you make the distiction as you raise your gun? - or don't you care ?

    H
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    I care, but I will not have remorse for shooting someone in the leg if they where to steal something like my wallet or briefcase, and I DEFINITELY not feel remorse for shooting someone who has broken into my home.

    As for confidence: this is not something that is universal. Some people do it for confidence, some to try to be as protective as possible. I don't know that you can truly say people feel too much protection and confidence from using them -- we'd need one helluva comprehensive survey to determine such a thing.

    Given the instances we seem to agree can render a gun useful, I don't think the potential for being over-confident with a gun is reason enough for it to be laughable -- especially when even that is questionable.

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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I am saddened that you consider your property more valuable than another persons life or health, but that's your bag (what does the bible have to say about it?). I still maintain that a gun is not going to help you in a HUGE variety of situations, many that I have encountered, and I think that the potential for unreasonable or accidental harm is far greater than the potential for useful protection, as such it is a laughable argument that a gun should be carried for defence.
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    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    A gun for everyone! This would be so cool... Look at the possibilities:
    * I could shoot my German teacher
    * I could shoot her again
    * I could shoot the doctors trying to re-animate her
    * I could shoot the policemen trying to stop me from shooting

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yeah, and perhaps driving a car everyday is too much of a risk as well, especially considering, as I said earlier, that it only saves you time -- not really any potential at ALL to save your life.

    If I knew my shot at the thief, when NOT in my home (IE: on the street) would kill him, I would likely not shoot. If I knew it would cripple them for life, I would be unlikely to shoot as well, but if I knew it would hurt them and stop them without permanent damage, I would shoot. This does not make me selfish.

    Now, obviously if I am to fire, I cannot be sure what my shot will do, but I would certainly not aim anywhere other than the legs, to try to simply make them stop. My goal is only to get my thing(s) back, and turn them over to the authorities. If this could be down with Mace or something, it'd certainly be superior, but Mace doesn't work at long-range.

    A gun, I believe, does not have to be helpful in a "HUGE" variety of situations to be worthwhile. Keep in mind that you're calling it laughable -- which implies that it's ridiculous, so it doesn't have to be useful in a huge variety of situations for your statement to be incorrect/exaggerated.

    I still believe that if you are trained properly, the risk of injury to yourself or a loved one is much smaller than the chance of a child getting ahold of a knife, or pulling an aqaurium on themselves, or getting into a fatal car crash, and can be avoided in most situations -- lock it up, carry a key with you, AND teach your children about it.

    That's one thing that bugs me about the 8-year old: I don't know that it's necessarily a good idea to keep the child totally in the dark about guns. It might be a better idea to warn them and train them of it. I see the benefits on both sides however, and cannot speak with certainty there.

  7. #32
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmj
    At age 8 and a half, they arrived home to find their 8 year old dead, accidentally shot by the gun.
    I think you're assuming that every household has a child. IMHO, the laws in the U.S. should be more strict, however. Anyone who wants to own a gun should have to take special training to learn how to use and clean them, and guns sold at auction should have the same background-check waiting period as when you purchase from a licensed dealer. That last one was tossed around a few years ago, but I don't know what came of it. BTW, I own a gun.

  8. #33
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    I am saddened that you consider your property more valuable than another persons life or health, but that's your bag (what does the bible have to say about it?).
    I don't know, but I guess it's a good thing I don't believe in the bible. Look at it this way, if someone has the balls to come into my home and rob me when I'm there, then I'll assume they also have the balls to try to harm me. That's when my gun will come in handy. I can think of numerous situations where a gun would be better than nothing at all, but I can think of just as many situations where having a gun wouldn't do you much good. It works both ways, and I'd rather have a gun than not.

  9. #34
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Okay here is my background
    I have been around guns all my life. I used to go target shooting on a regular basis until a few years ago. I am trained to use both hand guns and rifles. I was trained by my father and he was trained by the United States Marines. He was trained for one reason and that was to use the necessary force needed to protect himself in the then hostile jungles of Viet Nam. My father carries a gun to this day, he is a Law Enforcement Officer. I see a purpose for guns in today's society and even think that people have the right to own firearms within reason.

    This is to make you think
    You are in your mid-40s and sleeping one night when you are suddenly awakened. You look up and find a man standing in your room with a knife and he is taking things off of the dresser. You reach into the nightstand next to your bed and pull out a small side-arm. Nothing large, just a Glock 9mm semi-automatic with 9 shots in the clip. You aim and say something. The person turns around and moves towards you. You shoot. The burglar falls down on the floor in a heap. After this you turn on the light. There on the floor lies your sixteen year old son. He is holding 20 dollars he just removed from your wallet and a set of car keys (the shiny metal you thought was a knife). You call the paramedics but when they get there, it is too late. They can't help.

    Think some more
    This is a scenario given to law enforcement trainees in a simulated environment. They are issued weapons which only shot light and it recorded by a computer. Let us begin...

    A law enforcement officer is called to a train yard because of a disturbance. While looking around he sees a young male in disreputable clothes. The young man is coming towards him. He pulls his weapons and informs the man to "freeze". The man continues towards him. He issues the order again. The young man reaches behind him to pull something out of his back pocket. The officer shoots and fatally wounds the young man. As he falls, his wallet falls out of his hand and a small white card falls to the ground.

    What do you think the card said? We'll get back to that. Nationwide in the United States, 90% of new recruits shoot the young man before they exhaust other subdual options and method. Shooting someone should be the very last resort no matter what. Even if you shoot them in the leg they can bleed to death in a very rapid manner. This was taught to me by my father. His words were "Do not ever shoot at someone unless you want to kill them".

    Oh what did the small white card that the boy was carrying say?
    "Hello, My name is Jeff. I am deaf. How can I help you?"
    Here is another story. This one factual and happened in my own family.
    About 6 years ago, my parents were sleeping and were awoken by the crash of glass. They though someone was breaking into the house. My father got up and loaded his .357 Revolver (it holds 5 shots instead of the normal 6). He picked up his badge and went outside to circle the house. While he was doing this my mother called the local Sheriff's. When my dad got outside he found a man trying to break into their neighbor's house. She was an old woman of about 80 years. My father calmly told the man to stop and turn around. The man complied. All my dad did from that time forward was stand there. He never raised his weapon, though it was clearly visible nor did he remove the safety. When the sheriff's got there they had to examine my father's weapon to make sure it hadn't been fired. When the deputy say it only held 5 shots he asked my father why? My father's response was "If I am such fear of my life that I need to fire a weapon and I don't him them in 5 shots, do you think one more is really going to save me?"

    Weapons properly used will be a deterrant to crime. This doesn't mean everyone should own a gun. There should be training and testing before permits are issued. They should be properly managed. If one person in the home owns a gun, everyone in the home should be trained in its use. And in no circumstances should a loaded gun be brought in to the house. My father removes all rounds from his weapon before he walks in the front door. All weapons and ammunition should be safely stowed away in a locked cabinet. Steel Cabinets with combination locks are best. Never should you hide a weapon from a child. You should teach them to respect guns and what they are made for and regardless of what else was said in this thread, a gun was made for one purpose and one purpose only..... To kill other living things.
    Wayne Luke
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  10. #35
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    The reason I sugest that it is laughable is not it's inneficiency (although that is true at v close range), but becuase it has the unfortunate side effect of instilling false confidence. Nasty confrontations are not something you can "train" for, fact. You have to experience them, again and again, to come even close to being desensitised. If you have not got that experience, then all of your super efficient "gun training" is going to be utterly useless.

    H
    Yea I guess that's why they train police officers and military. Must be becuase it is so "utterly useless". -Geez
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

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    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    The deaf scenario is pardon the pun "mute". Any non-retarded individual with sight knows better than to make any sudden moves when an officer has drawn down on him. I will also tell you a few of the things I donít like about your story {purely opinion}. You say your dad "loaded" his gun. That's insanity. One's weapon should always be loaded, an unloaded handgun is an intimidating paperweight...Nothing more. You say he never took the safety off, Luckily that worked out for him. However lets just say the burglar happened to have his weapon in hand, your dad says "turn around slowly".. Those would have probably been his last words.

    I would also like to address the "shot my own son" scenario. This scenario is an education issue. Not a weapon issue. If the father had made it apparent "Son, Always announce yourself because daddy sleeps with a weapon", "Son, Donít wake daddy up in the middle of the night". And if you want to look at it in a somewhat humorous aspect, why was the little ******* in his daddy's wallet anyway...get a job
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Onechance, you're a living testament to my arguement -
    W.Luke - excellent post.
    Hellbent - I have also trained both military and police personel, but in unarmed combat rather than firearms. The extent of the training received by those agencies is far greater than your average Joe gun owner - but things still go hideously wrong - frequenty. I'm not suggesting for a second that they should not carry, that would be silly - but when individuals who have received "the best" training (and I am talking not just about how to shoot, but pressure testing and "realistic" confrontations, not to mention genuine experiences) are getting it wrong, loosing rounds into innocent people, it is questionable that anyone who has not had the experience (despite all their "training") can claim to be able to use a gun appropriately. Factor in the peeps who own them who are insufficiently trained, and uncontrollable variables like their families and, like I said, the concept of a gun for "protection" becomes laughable.

    H
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  13. #38
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Hellbent may be interested in the Darwin Awards, judged annually they are awarded to commemorate those people who improve the human gene pool by removing themselves from it. While the morals of eugenics may be questionable, one cannot argue with the wisdom of nature.

    www.darwinawards.com

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I was going to say the same thing: the Jeff/deaf scenario doesn't seem to make much sense. Unless he is deaf, and perhaps mentally retarded, he'd likely know to stop. Even people of questionable intelligence would probably know to stop when a gun is pointed at them.

    As for the son scenario: there is something to it. I admit you had me shocked as I read it, but even as such, this is an issue with a stupid teenage son who is willing to break into his parent's things in the middle of the night -- educate him and let him know you have a gun! There's little exscuse for that kind of stupid mistake.

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Hellbent & TWT - I don't think either of you have tried to view the "situation" described from the point of view of one who is deaf/mute. You both have a voice at your disposal (sorry, I am assuming - but your posts lead me to do so), and I suspect use that voice far more readily than you realise. "Don't shoot" "help" "noo", etc, may me "panic" responses to the situation described. I can almost guarantee you'd respond in that type of manner. You may or may not stop, but you would make a defensive verbal gesture.
    Take that away from the scenario and you are left panicking and frustrated. The person with the gun could be issuing all sorts of commands at you, perhaps even with "ulitimatums" ("do such and such or I'll shoot") - how are you to know, you're deaf......soooo, your prime desire is to communicate that fact to the holder of the weapon.....hence moving forward and trying to show the card - what options do you have left? Think these things through guys.......


    Remember also that as W Luke said, this is an actual police training scenario. I suspect that upon shooting the person in question, the candidates report cards do not say "Good reflex's, the deaf/mute deserved it anyway, only an idiot doesn't stop when a guns pointed at them".


    H
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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    You're right, they don't say that -- but I think the simulation is flawed. Is it guaranteed the person would freeze? No, but I think most people would likely freeze -- seems common sense to me.

    If this is something they use to test police officers, I'd wanted it more accurate than that. Just my opinion, though. And no, I'm not deaf.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    twt - I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative here - but how many times have you either
    a: Pointed a gun at someone or
    b: Had a gun pointed at you

    Even if you have experienced this once or twice, it will not come close to the combined experience of the forces who consider this to be a perfectly valid test. It is unfortunate that these people can't access your expertise and rectify the realism of the situation.



    H

    (ps - did you actually read the first part of my post, if you did the devastatingly strong "seems most people would likely freeze" argument may have been omitted from your post - most likely, well, seems like common sense to me....)
    Last edited by TheOriginalH; May 18, 2001 at 08:22.
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    True, I have little experience in terms of handling guns, but yes, I read the first part of your post more closely than the others, in fact.

    I just find it hard to believe that a deaf person of reasonable intelligence, we'll assume, would continue RUNNING AT someone who had a gun. We're not talking about wondering what they wanted them to do, but honestly, RUNNING AT the person?

  19. #44
    I am the night... bman's Avatar
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    ok we recently had this situation happen in our town.. this is true, it actually happened.. two police officers went into a man's back yard to give him a citation for for having an open fire burning in a grill (he apparently had a can of gasoline to close to the fire or something). The man was there with his dog (a 1 year old puppy). The officer was tapping his holster where his gun was. Now what is a puppy going to do if he sees you tapping at your side? He is going to think you want to play. So the puppy ran towards the officer. The officer pulled his gun, and shot the dog in the head.

    I think this is quite similiar to the "deaf man" scenario. Obviously the dog didnt know any better. And the officers had other ways to subdue the dog that would not have killed it.

    Obviously this officer needed more training.

    I really didn't want to get into this debate, but i thought this story went along nicely with the deaf man scenario.
    Last edited by bman; May 18, 2001 at 08:46.
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  20. #45
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by W. Luke


    A law enforcement officer is called to a train yard because of a disturbance. While looking around he sees a young male in disreputable clothes. The young man is coming towards him. He pulls his weapons and informs the man to "freeze". The man continues towards him. He issues the order again. The young man reaches behind him to pull something out of his back pocket. The officer shoots and fatally wounds the young man. As he falls, his wallet falls out of his hand and a small white card falls to the ground.
    I'm not directing this at you Wayne. Just at the police officer mentioned above

    I'm really unsure about why the officer would have shot a person
    - running toward him
    - with no indication of carrying a weapon
    - didn't seem to fully understand the officer's commands

    This seems like a massive problem to me. As far as I know, police officers cannot shoot somebody unless the person has a weapon, is threatening to use it, and it is endangering somebody's life. Furthermore, if the person didn't understand English then the police officers might have waited a bit longer to see what he was doing.

    Sounds like a corrupt, quick-fingered police officer.

    Please fill me in on this

    By the way, the deaf person probably should have stopped when he saw the gun, if it were not a police officer. But if it were a police officer, he should have been able to trust the police officer.
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  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    MMJ, I'm surprised at you.

    It's a training excercise, it's a "light gun", the deaf guy is probably an actor and the "corrupt, quick fingered officer" is any one of the nervous trainee police who fail the test. READ the post

    H
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  22. #47
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    mmj you are not being logical. Your main concern as an officer in a confrontation is to protect yourself. You dont take chances. You dont "wait and see" if he has a weapon. If the kid was reaching for a weapon and the officer had "waited to see" he would have probably been shot. -geez
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Edit:

    Hellbent, you are not reading the situation, or point of this training excercise correctly


    Your main concern "as an officer" is to protect and serve the community, not shoot them. This never was a "confrontation", that's the point - and also the reason that carrying guns for defence is laughable.

    Thanks once again for bolstering my point by example

    H
    Last edited by TheOriginalH; May 19, 2001 at 06:31.
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  24. #49
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    carrying guns for defence is laughable.
    It's only laughable until you're in a situation where you need one.

  25. #50
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    TheOriginalH,
    There is no reason to get personal and insult my intelligence just because you are wrong. Just relax, one day you will have an opinion that might be halfway correct.

    Please in the future, try attack the opinion and not the man giving it. We are grown men {an assumption, you could be a twelve year old} and as such can conduct our debate in a more adult manner. Personal attacks are for children and the weak of mind.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.


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