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  1. #51
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    good post westech... kind of sad you gotta point out the obvious, ie be fair and ethical, but such is life.

  2. #52
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Westech
    It looks like there are two main issues that have been brought up and need to be addressed:

    1. The issue of designers (stealing/borrowing/being inspired by) the designs of others. - I personally love the way that the contests forum works now, and I'd hate to see it change just because of this issue. It seems to me that this could be addressed by some general guidelines being published regarding what is and is not acceptable. If a designer feels that someone has crossed the line, they can report it to a mod who will have the final say over what is and isn't appropriate. Seems simple enough!

    2. The issue of contest holders not picking a winner or not paying - The existing rules already cover this. It just needs to be made abundantly clear that if you start a contest you will be required to stick to the deadline, pick a winner from the entries received, and pay the winner in a timely fashion. It should also be made crystal clear that contest holders who break these rules will be BANNED! If this were strictly enforced I think that a lot of the bad apples would be weeded out and members would take contests more seriously and not just start one on a whim and then change their minds. Another thing that might help is my suggestion of implementing trader ratings.

  3. #53
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    If as designers we don't police ourselves, then more and more rules will be put in place. I think we need to let the new guys know when they overstep. I am sure a lot of them will question our motives, but it's like the medical profession if we don't try and direct the new posters to what is ethical, then there are always going to be more and more overlaps and infringements.
    No offense, and I hope I don't re-open the proverbial can of worms, but who are you to determine when someone oversteps? Where is that line drawn? Do you have some sort of experience or education that makes you an authority over anyone here on design ethics and principles? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic either. I don't know you or what your background is, so seriously, why should anyone listen to what you think is ethical instead of what some other person thinks is ethical? I'm just trying to understand here.

    This is the exact problem I mentioned in my last post. I don't think we could ever come to an agreement as to when someone oversteps.

  4. #54
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    Hi Guys.. just to mention that you don't have to award a winner.

    If in the first post they state that they might not choose a winner then they don't have to. But they also need to support that with feedback and at least trying.

    And yes most people should stick to timelines but thinsg happen again its hard to moderate this too

    You can report posts now you don't have to wait for rules to say you can

    Keep ideas coming though I am taking note of all of them
    Regular user

  5. #55
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    I think westech said it best with his first point. Let a moderator make the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by helix7
    No offense, and I hope I don't re-open the proverbial can of worms, but who are you to determine when someone oversteps? Where is that line drawn? Do you have some sort of experience or education that makes you an authority over anyone here on design ethics and principles? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic either. I don't know you or what your background is, so seriously, why should anyone listen to what you think is ethical instead of what some other person thinks is ethical? I'm just trying to understand here.

    This is the exact problem I mentioned in my last post. I don't think we could ever come to an agreement as to when someone oversteps.

  6. #56
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    Hi Guys.. just to mention that you don't have to award a winner.

    If in the first post they state that they might not choose a winner then they don't have to. But they also need to support that with feedback and at least trying.
    Totally agree. And those kinds of rules are spelled out in the first post of a contest if the contest holder chooses to go that route. But far too many have just died without warning as well.

  7. #57
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccs111
    I think westech said it best with his first point. Let a moderator make the decision.
    Yeah, he posted while I was typing that. Makes sense to me.

  8. #58
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    I don't think most of us have a problem with contest holders who really try by giving constructive feedback and holding the contest for a reasonable period of time. Sometimes they don't get anything they like and I don't think they should have to just choose even though they aren't satisfied. But in the last couple of days there have been a few that just plain didn't try or broke the rules.

    Like this one running contest here and on his own website.

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226277

    and another that gave no feedback and then closed the contest with no winner.

    Thanks for listening. It does feel good to get things off your chest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    Hi Guys.. just to mention that you don't have to award a winner.

    If in the first post they state that they might not choose a winner then they don't have to. But they also need to support that with feedback and at least trying.

    And yes most people should stick to timelines but thinsg happen again its hard to moderate this too

    You can report posts now you don't have to wait for rules to say you can

    Keep ideas coming though I am taking note of all of them

  9. #59
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    Deborah - that link to a contest that was in 2 places and after I spoke to him he changed it to SP only - therefore i think that is one yto show where it worked and not where it didn't. I.e. report and tell usthese thinsg and we will try and deal with them

    the problem mainly is when people take actions into their own hands, saying things to others - also being written rather than said people can take things to wrong way when they were meant in another - again contact staff first and let us deal with it rather than trying to yourself.

    ones that give no feedback and then close - well not much I or any rule can do about that.. but I did think things were getting better not worse

    Although it tends to go in stages like I will get a free couple of months where things are fine and then like now thinsg kick off again.

    But some other Q's for you:

    What do people think about the 25 posts rule - good or bad?
    What about comp on other sites - good or bad?
    What other rules can we put in place - ie I can mention in the guidelines that its all fair game and ethics should fair etc but that doens't mean people will read them or follow them... can anyone think of anything else?
    Regular user

  10. #60
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    Deborah - that link to a contest that was in 2 places and after I spoke to him he changed it to SP only - therefore i think that is one yto show where it worked and not where it didn't. I.e. report and tell usthese thinsg and we will try and deal with them.
    He said he changed it to SP only, but never really did. Then he PMd me and said he'd give me half the prize, which (what a shock) has also not happened. If you need any other info on that one, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    What do people think about the 25 posts rule - good or bad?
    What about comp on other sites - good or bad?
    What other rules can we put in place - ie I can mention in the guidelines that its all fair game and ethics should fair etc but that doens't mean people will read them or follow them... can anyone think of anything else?
    25 post rule: Good.

    Comps on other site: Good and Bad. Good if the contest holder plans to pick and pay a winner on both sites. Bad because I doubt any contest holder would actually pay two people. It seems hard enough lately to get them to pay one person.

    Other rules: Don't know. I'll think about that one.

  11. #61
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I understand both of your points of view. I have been in his shoes before. worked on a concept half of the night then go to upload and notice that someone else has beat me to it. It is a difficult situation do you just throw it away or go ahead and post?
    Yeah CSS111 you were the first one five hours later to jump on the airplane concept. Then everyone else did.

    Helix, I am never going to change your point of view so I am not going to keep trying. You know what you are doing, and so do the rest of us. By the way I have a degree in Fine Arts and Ornamental Horticulture, not that it matters.

    Pat

  12. #62
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I understand both of your points of view. I have been in his shoes before. worked on a concept half of the night then go to upload and notice that someone else has beat me to it. It is a difficult situation do you just throw it away or go ahead and post?

    I too have done this and what I did was scrap my concept and put it in my portfolio if I thought it was good enough.

  13. #63
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    Helix, I am never going to change you point of view so I am not going to keep trying. You know what you are doing, and so do the rest of us.
    If by "the rest of us" you mean all the people who PMd me to say you've done the same thing to them, than I fully understand.

    And I also think I'll never convince you to change your mind, so I guess we should just ignore each other.

    Anyway.. back on topic...

  14. #64
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I have no idea who pmmed you Helix. So the argument is moot. You can say you have an army on your side that's fine. But is it right?

  15. #65
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    What other rules can we put in place - ie I can mention in the guidelines that its all fair game and ethics should fair etc but that doens't mean people will read them or follow them... can anyone think of anything else?
    Not sure if this would help much, but here's an idea. Does anyone think it would be possible to write our own official SP code of conduct? I was just browsing some websites of graphic design organizations and it seems fairly common for organizations and institutions to have a code of conduct or code of ethics. Maybe we could all pitch in ideas for what should be included and post that in the Contest guidlines. It wouldn't be a set of additional rules exactly, but more of a "how you are expected to conduct yourself" kind of thing.

    Just a thought...

  16. #66
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    anything like that is welcome - but for example you too are still bickering even in this thread - why - sort it out!!!

    how can you expect for others to behave if the 8 or so people writing in this thread still get into a row, that is what saddens me

    Anyway code of conducts and that type of thing are fine - the problem we have is quite a few people don't read the guidelines therefore it doesn't matter what we write for them, those are the few that ruin it for the rest (and no not talking about you guys here) so its looking for a solution that minimises the damage those few can do to let the rest of you get on with doing what you love - designing
    Regular user

  17. #67
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I think more by performance or action we can show new users what's approved or acceptable and what isn't. Shyflower and I both bowed out of the Highline contest when the contest runner ask all of us to copy a mural who's originator wasn't contacted or given credit, plus the fact that the whole train idea was someone elses.

    I was asked in the Addy's Candy thing to incorporate other's features I declined to do so, but I still won that one. I think by example we can make things work better for all.

  18. #68
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree - by example is great thing - nicely thought - also reporting things you are unhappy with also...

    not sure what else would work...
    Regular user

  19. #69
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    anything like that is welcome - but for example you too are still bickering even in this thread - why - sort it out!!!

    how can you expect for others to behave if the 8 or so people writing in this thread still get into a row, that is what saddens me

    Anyway code of conducts and that type of thing are fine - the problem we have is quite a few people don't read the guidelines therefore it doesn't matter what we write for them, those are the few that ruin it for the rest (and no not talking about you guys here) so its looking for a solution that minimises the damage those few can do to let the rest of you get on with doing what you love - designing
    It's sorted... phacker is Ignored.

    Well the reason I mentioned the guidlines thing was actually because when I first read them they seemed sort of weak. I mean, no offense, but the threat of being reported to a mod obviously doesn't deter anyone from doing anything. Not that there really is any way of handling that I guess, but a code of conduct might inspire people to at least think for a second about the rules they are breaking.

    Or maybe I'm just too optimistic.

  20. #70
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    Sarah, I don't think any of us are in a row here. I think it's still a pretty agreeable open discussion. Sure some of us disagree... that's life I think Helix and CS111 and I have different points of view but I don't think there is anthing really negative going on here.

  21. #71
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    Actually if you read the last page of the thread he did not change it to sp only. he lied about that and chose a winner from another site. If you want I can send you the link where he has done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    Deborah - that link to a contest that was in 2 places and after I spoke to him he changed it to SP only - therefore i think that is one yto show where it worked and not where it didn't. I.e. report and tell usthese thinsg and we will try and deal with them

  22. #72
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Okay, I didn't know about this thread until a few minutes ago so I may be repeating some thoughts already mentioned (BUT I DIDN'T STEAL THEM!!!) --just kidding ---


    I think it's a mistake to take the contests out of the open. What's to stop a contest holder from sending someone else your entry and having them "refine" it?

    I also think it's a mistake to add too many rules. As another forum (which I did see was mentioned here) added rules, now they have rules upon rules and very little else.

    However there are some changes that I would like to see, too. First of all a stop to all the bickering in the contest threads. Also a stop to the extraneous comments. (Oh Shy! I think your design should win!) (If that was my design I'd do this or that to it!)

    The only people that should be talking about design are the designers (about his/her own) and the contest holder. If we think we are professionals, it's time to start acting in a businesslike manner, IM(not so)HO

    Comments from outsiders do sway the outcome of a contest. I can't prove it, but is someone oo's and ah's over one design, it's bound to make the contest holder take a second look where maybe he/she wouldn't have before.

    You wouldn't tell a client in your office about the great competitor next door. Why do it here?

    Also this c**p about PayPal vs other methods of payment. Yeah sure, I have a PayPal account, but guess what! I don't use Adobe products. There are lots of contests that I can't enter because they want it done in photoshop or illustrator. So what? I go on to the next one that I can enter. The same should go with methods of payment IMO. If they can't pay you, don't work for them. Seems like a no-brainer to me!

    One last thing. What's up with this "contest place holder" BS? Do you really think it makes a difference where your design appears? I thought it was about how good it was... maybe I'm wrong.

    I lied... one more thing. Stop the "if I get time, I'll enter this" Who are you trying to impress?

    There... had my vent now... thanks for the opportunity.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  23. #73
    Word Painter silver trophy Shyflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah
    Deborah - that link to a contest that was in 2 places and after I spoke to him he changed it to SP only - therefore i think that is one yto show where it worked and not where it didn't. I.e. report and tell usthese thinsg and we will try and deal with them

    the problem mainly is when people take actions into their own hands, saying things to others - also being written rather than said people can take things to wrong way when they were meant in another - again contact staff first and let us deal with it rather than trying to yourself.

    ones that give no feedback and then close - well not much I or any rule can do about that.. but I did think things were getting better not worse

    Although it tends to go in stages like I will get a free couple of months where things are fine and then like now thinsg kick off again.

    But some other Q's for you:

    What do people think about the 25 posts rule - good or bad?
    What about comp on other sites - good or bad?
    What other rules can we put in place - ie I can mention in the guidelines that its all fair game and ethics should fair etc but that doens't mean people will read them or follow them... can anyone think of anything else?
    Since you asked

    25 post rule... undecided. Thought it was good at first, but just because someone hasn't posted at sitepoint before doesn't mean they don't know how to design and just because they have 525 post doesn't mean they do know how to design and how to act in a contest environment. (Is there a tutorial somewhere on that?)

    Good that no comp on other sites. I like to know who and what wins in a contest even if sometimes I don't know why! (Kidding again!)

    No more rules. Rules were made to be broken. SitePoint is a top-notch site IMO. Start changing things too much and you'll lose more than you'll gain, I think. One rule that I wish was stronger was the one about flaming. Three times and your out? I don't know the answer... just have the question.

    One thing I do believe is that the contest forum should be a "fun" work environment.
    Linda Jenkinson
    "Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean." ~Unknown

  24. #74
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    What do people think about the 25 posts rule - good or bad?
    What about comp on other sites - good or bad?
    I don't think you need the 25 post rule.

    The comp on other sites I think should stand and be enforced.

  25. #75
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    I think the 25 post rule is dumb. Sorry for being blunt just my opinion. I think people just go around posting a bunch of crap to get there.

    running a contest on more than one site at the same time should not be allowed. I don't mind not choosing a winner if they aren't satisfied but the chances of not choosing a winner will increase if they are holding two or more contests.


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