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  1. #26
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    Thats ok Pat - it was more your last paragraph came across (to me) as harsh.. but then been clearing up a few threads today so I might have been more sensitive

    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    Sorry Sarah, thought I was staying on topic.

    Pat
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  2. #27
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't like it there can't have any discussion at all. Very boring. I like the community feel here squabbles and all. Which I believe are going to happen no matter what we do. Hey, my husband and I disagree all the time. Whenever you are with a group of people a lot you are bound to have disagreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    I think we both belong to that site. I would hate to see sitepoint become that convoluted.



  3. #28
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    css, I am glad you started this thread it shows you care enough about this site to want to make it better. I am just afraid of change.

    Yes I do agree with you that some contest holders (probably not meaning any harm) do take someone elses idea and ask everyone else to work on it and that is wrong. Case in point, the Highline contest. I want to apologize (see I need that spell checker) to you for that. I was new here when that contest took place but if I had it to do over again I would decline. However, you did not jump all over me for that you showed a lot of class in that contest and for that I give you a lot of credit. I think we need more of that.

    Deborah

    Quote Originally Posted by css
    Deborah, i like the relaxed feel as well. I hate it when people imply that i copied someone. I also hate it when people bluntly copy me. For this reason i am just trying to throw some ideas on the table and see if we can work something out. Rules are not bad if they make things better for everyone. What i proposed with closed bids does not change things much in terms of what we see and what we learn from. All submissions will still be available to everyone, just with a delay. This dealay will make sure nobody starts saying "Oh, you took that from me!" thats all. Aslo, do you agree that it is not fair to ask someone to "touch up" someone else's work and award a contest to him instead of the person who came up with the idea in the first place? I clearly see the difference between graphic artists and business minds. We have those who can draw and make good illustrations and those who have the eye for business image creation and i just want everyone to be happy and to be awarded for their time and talent.

  4. #29
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Some very good arguments, css.

    However, I see a crucial logical error in your argumentation that I think would make things worse, not better at all.

    Here is why I think that such a system cannot work.

    1. Transparency and honesty

    A scenario: A dozen designers submit their concepts to the contestholder via private message. So far so good. The contestholder then reviews and evaluates each of these. And now here is the tricky part. The contest holder loves the concept of designer A, but thinks that designer B's overall style is much more appealing. And now what? It'd be just as easy for a contestholder to ask designer B to be inspired by the concept of designer A. Sure, you can prohibit that as a general rule. But whether someone abides to these rules or not is something that we have absolutely no control over.

    2. The beauty of interactive competitions

    With a system such as suggested, the contest forum would die pretty soon.
    For one, because the mere fact that, as by the rules of most contestholders and the permission of the forum rules, the competitions here at Sitepoint offer
    one of the highest levels of creative competitions with results that very often exceed the quality of design that was expected and can very well compete (and sometimes even surpass) with quality delivered by Real World (as you call it) companies/design firms. And it is exactly this very method that Sitepoint uses that makes this place so attractive and appealing. Not just for contestholders and designers, but also for potential clients, because they have the unique priviledge of actually following processes of how designs are created - from first drafts up to final concepts and results.
    Yes, of course I do see the downsides too, the ones that made you create this thread in the first place. And I fully agree with having stricter rules in some areas. But they should not be conceptualized and executed in such a way that it eliminates creativity. And to me, reinforcing rules, particularly such as the first one would be completely contra-productive in every which way I can think of.

    I might be a hippie, but I don't mind it if someone uses objects that someone else has already used prior, especially if it's an object that is directly linked to the business. If someone wants a logo for an architecture company and two people use houses, or roofs, well, that is more than self-explanatory.
    If an entire concept is adapted in that same contest however, then I'd say that is clearly plagiarism.


    I do assume that everyone participating in contests does so in order to learn first and foremost. And you learn by seeing what others do alot too.
    It's a great platform to let your ideas flow and be inspired, even admire what others can do.

    It's less the platform to make a living off financially. So, I think that we, as designers, should also put a bit more thought into what our purpose actually is and evaluate for ourselves what makes us participate.

    Is it to make money? Then that is the wrong place to be. Is it to learn and showcase your ideas and art? Most certainly so.

    Is it to gain recognition? Then I think the contest forum - too - is the ideal platform for that as well. But, the mere fact that each designer's work is open to the public makes you receive recognition. If someone else copies your work, even steals it, that too, will not go unnoticed and it certainly does not harm your recognition. On the contrary I believe.

    Anyway, sorry for the endless babbling. Just felt like letting a few things out.
    I personally love designing and I find that I get a lot out of being at Sitepoint each and every day. It is a beautiful resource for people of all ages, trades and levels of expertise, giving advanced as well as newer/intermediate designers such as myself the opportunity to learn, communicate, admire and progress. It is one of the very few communities I visit where I do not have the feeling that elitism reigns. For such a huge community, this place is pretty damn well moderated. There'll always be problems which is inevitable if you look at the amount of members activities. A few more rules would indeed be good, but I also think that it should not destroy the heart and ideology on which the forum was built on. I think the general concept of this place (mostly with a few problems) are based on a solid ideology that makes this place a lot more appealing than any other forum of this kind (for me anyway) and it'd be a shame if it were to change.


    Just my ramblins.
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  5. #30
    its all in the pixels css's Avatar
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    Some comments for you guys:

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek

    1. Transparency and honesty

    A scenario: A dozen designers submit their concepts to the contestholder via private message. So far so good. The contestholder then reviews and evaluates each of these. And now here is the tricky part. The contest holder loves the concept of designer A, but thinks that designer B's overall style is much more appealing. And now what? It'd be just as easy for a contestholder to ask designer B to be inspired by the concept of designer A. Sure, you can prohibit that as a general rule. But whether someone abides to these rules or not is something that we have absolutely no control over.
    COMMENT: I agree, that can take place. Since we are all human, we can not take out the human element completely. It is up to us, designers, to make sure this does not take place. I strongly feel that none of us here would agree to modify someone else's work without him/her knowing of it. I never said people here are dishonest, i simply stated that we have issues caused by lack of rules. I dont think anyone here willingly steals ideas and i dont think anyone here goes behind the scenes. In the case you brought up, i think the designer contacted by the contest holder to modify someone's work will surely post the request in the contest for everyone to see and deny it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    2. The beauty of interactive competitions

    With a system such as suggested, the contest forum would die pretty soon.
    For one, because the mere fact that, as by the rules of most contestholders and the permission of the forum rules, the competitions here at Sitepoint offer
    one of the highest levels of creative competitions with results that very often exceed the quality of design that was expected and can very well compete (and sometimes even surpass) with quality delivered by Real World (as you call it) companies/design firms. And it is exactly this very method that Sitepoint uses that makes this place so attractive and appealing. Not just for contestholders and designers, but also for potential clients, because they have the unique priviledge of actually following processes of how designs are created - from first drafts up to final concepts and results.
    Yes, of course I do see the downsides too, the ones that made you create this thread in the first place. And I fully agree with having stricter rules in some areas. But they should not be conceptualized and executed in such a way that it eliminates creativity. And to me, reinforcing rules, particularly such as the first one would be completely contra-productive in every which way I can think of.

    I might be a hippie, but I don't mind it if someone uses objects that someone else has already used prior, especially if it's an object that is directly linked to the business. If someone wants a logo for an architecture company and two people use houses, or roofs, well, that is more than self-explanatory.
    If an entire concept is adapted in that same contest however, then I'd say that is clearly plagiarism.
    COMMENT: I disagree. Contest will not die as nothing fundamental will change. A slight delay in publication of entries will not hurt anyone. We wait for 'client' feedback all the time. Contest holders ofter forget or do not have enough time to post feedback. The only variable taken out by my proposal is the "Oh, i posted this first and you just took my idea" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    I do assume that everyone participating in contests does so in order to learn first and foremost. And you learn by seeing what others do alot too.
    It's a great platform to let your ideas flow and be inspired, even admire what others can do.

    It's less the platform to make a living off financially. So, I think that we, as designers, should also put a bit more thought into what our purpose actually is and evaluate for ourselves what makes us participate.

    Is it to make money? Then that is the wrong place to be. Is it to learn and showcase your ideas and art? Most certainly so.

    Is it to gain recognition? Then I think the contest forum - too - is the ideal platform for that as well. But, the mere fact that each designer's work is open to the public makes you receive recognition. If someone else copies your work, even steals it, that too, will not go unnoticed and it certainly does not harm your recognition. On the contrary I believe.

    Anyway, sorry for the endless babbling. Just felt like letting a few things out.
    I personally love designing and I find that I get a lot out of being at Sitepoint each and every day. It is a beautiful resource for people of all ages, trades and levels of expertise, giving advanced as well as newer/intermediate designers such as myself the opportunity to learn, communicate, admire and progress. It is one of the very few communities I visit where I do not have the feeling that elitism reigns. For such a huge community, this place is pretty damn well moderated. There'll always be problems which is inevitable if you look at the amount of members activities. A few more rules would indeed be good, but I also think that it should not destroy the heart and ideology on which the forum was built on. I think the general concept of this place (mostly with a few problems) are based on a solid ideology that makes this place a lot more appealing than any other forum of this kind (for me anyway) and it'd be a shame if it were to change.
    COMMENT: The contest forum is the place to be if you want to do everything you described: people learn, showcase their work, compete and yes - make money. The system i proposed does not change that and surely will not destroy anything. There are many other areas on these forums where people enjoy their stay. I am simply proposing a slight change in the way contest are held. If you want to showcase your work or learn - you dont have to enter contests in reality.

    There are plenty of things to do here on sitepoint. If you just want to show people your work, you dont need to enter contests. You enter to win and should you loose, to gain experience in the process.

    Contest are meant to reward the best and to bring the best out of those involved.

    I just feel that lately contest bring out the worst in some cases and i find myself being stuck at times between not wanting to make someone upset, seeing people upset and being upset and not wanting to bother doing anything about it.

    If you guys think that no changes are due, fine by me. In this case please tell me what to do in the following cases:

    1. I am about to post a design when i see someone beat me to my concept and my work may be close to something already posted.

    2. I posted something i have been working on for a while. I think its the idea that makes it truly unique. Hours later someone posts my idea with a bit of a difference in execution style.

    3. I posted my work and someone steps up and tells me that i just copied his idea when i dont see that at all.

    4. I have a great idea in mind, but it will take a lot of time to execute and i dont know if i should invest that time. Why? Simply because someone may post the same idea and later tell me i copied him/her when i post mine.

    What i proposed should cure all of the above. Why? Simply because we submit in the blind, once our designs are published, nobody can say "You took that from me" - we never saw each-other's work.

  6. #31
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    PS: What I forgot to say to your initial post css, I think that the competition forum cannot be compared with a company as:

    A Sitepoint competition consists of multiple independent designers and one contestholder.

    A company as you described would consist of multiple designers who get receive an income that is not dependent on a single client. Here it is natural that teamwork often can be a good option and the reward shared adequately. Budget is negotiable and arguably averages a LOT higher as opposed to what a contestholder offers most of the time.

    In a forum competition only ONE designer gets paid. Everyone else works for free. So what if a contestholder offers $100 for a logo and likes five people to work on that one single logo? How will the prize be divided? Who will decide what is a fair division and what is not?

    I personally think that works by a single artist have a much higher value in each and every aspect when it comes to the creation of a design. I would agree with your approach if someone suggests a competition where at least two different tasks are involved, e.g. a contestholder who wants a logo, a webdesign, programming, flash or any other task that can easily be split into categories. That's where I feel that teamwork is adequate and a lot more effective without reducing the concepts of one designer for a certain category.
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  7. #32
    its all in the pixels css's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    A Sitepoint competition consists of multiple independent designers and one contestholder.
    No problem with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    A company as you described would consist of multiple designers who get receive an income that is not dependent on a single client. Here it is natural that teamwork often can be a good option and the reward shared adequately. Budget is negotiable and arguably averages a LOT higher as opposed to what a contestholder offers most of the time.
    I dont see how that is different. In addition it may not be as you described. I have been involved with a firm that had different "think tanks" and "execution teams" and each was awarded based on the work they do. Besides, the company structure you describe does not mean equal salaries. Dont forget bonus awards for good work.

    Sitepoint does not have to be different. If you notive, contest holders already do not care who does what as long as they get what they want in the end. They dont care who started and who finished. They dont care who to pay either. There are no personal favorites here. Its just that they only pay the entity that supplies the final product - just like clients of (big or small) firms. They dont care how the money is divided. It is our job as a community to figure things out. If you think about it, right now, every contest result is in a way a product of everyone's involvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    In a forum competition only ONE designer gets paid. Everyone else works for free. So what if a contestholder offers $100 for a logo and likes five people to work on that one single logo? How will the prize be divided? Who will decide what is a fair division and what is not?
    Not saying this is the way it needs to happen. The contest holder simply should not be allowed to direct contestants to use or work on other contestant's concepts. Period. They can award the logo they feel is closest to what they want, ask the winner to work on it further or buy services of another designer for finalization - after the contest has been closed. What i mean by this is - Only ONE contestant gets paid the contest prize. It is up to the contest holder to determine who should finalize the contest winning entry, when and what to pay for that work.

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    I personally think that works by a single artist have a much higher value in each and every aspect when it comes to the creation of a design. I would agree with your approach if someone suggests a competition where at least two different tasks are involved, e.g. a contestholder who wants a logo, a webdesign, programming, flash or any other task that can easily be split into categories. That's where I feel that teamwork is adequate and a lot more effective without reducing the concepts of one designer for a certain category.
    Bottom line is: The multitask and multipay option i presented is just an option. The main idea that needs attention is blind-submission. Forget, if you like, about awarding this or that, think about what we can do to minimize complaints of copyright violations, stealing of work and so on.

  8. #33
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by css
    Some comments for you guys:



    COMMENT: I agree, that can take place. Since we are all human, we can not take out the human element completely. It is up to us, designers, to make sure this does not take place. I strongly feel that none of us here would agree to modify someone else's work without him/her knowing of it. I never said people here are dishonest, i simply stated that we have issues caused by lack of rules. I dont think anyone here willingly steals ideas and i dont think anyone here goes behind the scenes. In the case you brought up, i think the designer contacted by the contest holder to modify someone's work will surely post the request in the contest for everyone to see and deny it.
    True. However, it is not just the designer's ethics that come into play.
    Likewise it is the contestholder's responsibility as well. A contestholder could as well be inspired by a contestant and describe some elements that he finds appealing to a second contestant. How would the first contestant even know if the revisions suggested are related to a concept submitted by someone else if the concepts by designers are not public to anyone else participating?
    This is what I mean. When it's open like it is now, at least we can see what is happening.




    COMMENT: I disagree. Contest will not die as nothing fundamental will change. A slight delay in publication of entries will not hurt anyone. We wait for 'client' feedback all the time. Contest holders ofter forget or do not have enough time to post feedback. The only variable taken out by my proposal is the "Oh, i posted this first and you just took my idea" argument.
    I think it will not be as transparent as it is now. Not that there is absolute transparency here now, but I personally feel it would become less. What I really love about this forum is the really tight competition you can sometimes watch. I love these and think it's great to see how much comes around many times.

    As for the stealing argument. I agree with you there entirely. But, in my opinion this is a problem of a designer, not the problem of other contestants.
    Like I said earlier in the forum thread that got deleted, I agree with you and castell about the difference between generic objects directly associated with a theme and conceptualizing. But, again, this is irrelevant I'd think because how we perceive what art is, is highly subjective and a matter of our own individual ethics and they vary, naturally so.


    COMMENT: The contest forum is the place to be if you want to do everything you described: people learn, showcase their work, compete and yes - make money. The system i proposed does not change that and surely will not destroy anything. There are many other areas on these forums where people enjoy their stay. I am simply proposing a slight change in the way contest are held. If you want to showcase your work or learn - you dont have to enter contests in reality. There are plenty of things to do here on sitepoint. Contest are meant to reward the best and to bring the best out of those involved. I just feel that lately contest bring out the worst in some cases.
    This is a very subjective paragraph and I disagree with some of your definitions of what a contest forum is/should or can be. It means different things to different people and that's good.

    I do agree with your last sentence, however. That is so true. Gladly, I have never had any arguments with anyone here (yet). But I have witnessed many many nasty things that made me shake my head.

    Great post css. Very insightful indeed. And you have definitely made me think and I do hope that your thoughts will find some form of echo that will help us all eventually. Thanks for this thread.

    Regards,

    Maleika
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  9. #34
    its all in the pixels css's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    True. However, it is not just the designer's ethics that come into play.
    Likewise it is the contestholder's responsibility as well. A contestholder could as well be inspired by a contestant and describe some elements that he finds appealing to a second contestant. How would the first contestant even know if the revisions suggested are related to a concept submitted by someone else if the concepts by designers are not public to anyone else participating?
    This is what I mean. When it's open like it is now, at least we can see what is happening.
    It still would be transparent once contest entries are posted for open view. As for revisions - i may have skipped over this in my initial post, but i think no revisions should be requested or performed until the submission deadline and publishing of entries - this way we are sure nobody copied anything. From that point on, everything goes as it does now.

    I am glad that everyone is taking place in this discussion. Bumping heards and taking place in a logical argument is what produces great results. I dont care if i am wrong or if my ideas have flaws. My main concern is the end result that would prove to make things better and not worse.

    Everyone who posted here has valid points to consider. I am glad that people are taking the time to write and share their thoughts. I am glad that my thread did not just die without a single reply. This in itself means that people care about this community and about each-other.

    If you can, guys, please give me more thoughts on the blind-submission idea.

    Maybe it is a bad idea. Maybe full transparency is the best way to go around, but how do we resolve these increasing arguments related to copying of work? Maybe all that is needed is a good set of rules that may be as simple as "Anything goes. If you post your work for everyone to see, you cant argue if it gets used". I dont know... what do you think?

  10. #35
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by css
    It is our job as a community to figure things out. If you think about it, right now, every contest result is in a way a product of everyone's involvement.
    Very interesting arguments. I agree with your first sentiment completely.
    The second one is extremely intriguing but I also think this is not generally the case. I've seen some concepts produced where I felt they were extraordinarily unique and highly professional.

    These, however, are often not rewarded which is also why I disagree with the sentiment that the "best" wins. The "Best" logo has often been a result of highly adapted concepts by other designers. Is that the best one? Not necessarily I'd think. But, this again fully validates the argument you bring up, though I do hope that this is not always the case. I have not really seen many competitions run. I just started out a couple weeks ago, so I might not have the full scope on this.

    Not saying this is the way it needs to happen. The contest holder simply should not be allowed to direct contestants to use or work on other contestant's concepts. Period.
    Agreed fully.
    They can award the logo they feel is closest to what they want, ask the winner to work on it further or buy services of another designer for finalization - after the contest has been closed. What i mean by this is - Only ONE contestant gets paid the contest prize. It is up to the contest holder to determine who should finalize the contest winning entry, when and what to pay for that work.
    Aha. Now I see what you actually mean clearly. That is absolutely a good thing.


    Bottom line is: The multitask and multipay option i presented is just an option. The main idea that needs attention is blind-submission. Forget, if you like, about awarding this or that, think about what we can do to minimize complaints of copyright violations, stealing of work and so on.
    Yes. Now I do understand your logic. That is indeed a good approach.

    Hmm ... let's see how this develops.
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  11. #36
    its all in the pixels css's Avatar
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    There are some things here and there, i just want to get everything into one spot here:

    Proposal for blind contest submissions:

    1. No submissions are to be made in the contest thread. All are PMed to the contest holder. The contest holder may not reply with feedback via PM or his thread until the submission deadline arrives.

    2. The contest holder must include a submission deadline for the contest, as well as an award deadline.

    3. Once the submission deadline arrives, the contest holder must post all submissions for public review. At the same time the contest holder must post feedback on each one.

    4. From this point the contest continues as it currently does, but no contestant may post any new concepts and no new contestants are accepted. Existing concepts may undergo an unlimited number of revisions by the designer responsible for the initial submission.

    5. The contest holder must keep the above in mind and post all dates to allow enough time for submissions and revisions. The contest holder must keep all deadlines unless emregency situations cause delays.

    Provided that the above rules are followed, things will work out naturally. Since the rules state that you can only make revisions on your own concept - the prize will be awarded to ONE contestant and the contest holder may end up asking someone else to work on improving it (should it need any improvement) AFTER the contest is over.

    Example: I like idea of this logo, but the colors are wrong and i would want it more stylish, perhaps a bit cleaner and crisper. There is a logo that is not something i want, but its done in a style i like - what do i do? Answer: Award both and flip items around using your own skills or any other designer you hire. Award the concept and work on the details uisng your own skills or any other designer you hire.

  12. #37
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by css
    It still would be transparent once contest entries are posted for open view. As for revisions - i may have skipped over this in my initial post, but i think no revisions should be requested or performed until the submission deadline and publishing of entries - this way we are sure nobody copied anything. From that point on, everything goes as it does now.

    I am glad that everyone is taking place in this discussion. Bumping heards and taking place in a logical argument is what produces great results. I dont care if i am wrong or if my ideas have flaws. My main concern is the end result that would prove to make things better and not worse.

    Everyone who posted here has valid points to consider. I am glad that people are taking the time to write and share their thoughts. I am glad that my thread did not just die without a single reply. This in itself means that people care about this community and about each-other.

    If you can, guys, please give me more thoughts on the blind-submission idea.

    Maybe it is a bad idea. Maybe full transparency is the best way to go around, but how do we resolve these increasing arguments related to copying of work? Maybe all that is needed is a good set of rules that may be as simple as "Anything goes. If you post your work for everyone to see, you cant argue if it gets used". I dont know... what do you think?

    It is so late here and I need to get sleep.

    However, I find this input by you and all others very invaluable, not just for me, but in general, for what we do here. It is a good means to evaluate our own ideas, ethics and perceptions of art, business, concepts, plagiarism, copying etc. But it's also highly subjective. Basically, I respect that e.g. phacker does not like to use a generic object if someone else has used it. That is fine and I respect it, even if I disagree. Where do we draw the line? If someone uses a circle, can someone else not use one? Whose property are they? When is something common association that is a natural human process which we cannot even control and at what point do these automatic associations (I'm only referring to the very basic associations, e.g. when someone says wheel, you'll think of a circle, when someone says tree, you'll think of leaves and wood etc.) that we all share alike surpass the stage of mere visual translation -> idea processes and individual perception -> brainstorming, creative stream of ideas -> chaos -> shape -> form -> concept?

    Ok, I think my last sentence is a bit too long. Sorry about that.
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  13. #38
    its all in the pixels css's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek
    It is so late here and I need to get sleep.

    However, I find this input by you and all others very invaluable, not just for me, but in general, for what we do here. It is a good means to evaluate our own ideas, ethics and perceptions of art, business, concepts, plagiarism, copying etc. But it's also highly subjective. Basically, I respect that e.g. phacker does not like to use a generic object if someone else has used it. That is fine and I respect it, even if I disagree. Where do we draw the line? If someone uses a circle, can someone else not use one? Whose property are they? When is something common association that is a natural human process which we cannot even control and at what point do these automatic associations (I'm only referring to the very basic associations, e.g. when someone says wheel, you'll think of a circle, when someone says tree, you'll think of leaves and wood etc.) that we all share alike surpass the stage of mere visual translation -> idea processes and individual perception -> brainstorming, creative stream of ideas -> chaos -> shape -> form -> concept?

    Ok, I think my last sentence is a bit too long. Sorry about that.
    Aha! That is why i proposed blind-submissions! No need to argue about who used the circle first - everyone used it on their own not borrowing from anyone else. Since evryone submitted their own work they have the right to revise it - hence no arguments. 10 people end up using a black circle 10mm in diameter - no problem, its the rest of the submission that will be different. We all have our own taste in things. There is no way two people will end up with the exact same thing and if they do - well the contest holder will still pick only one - call it luck or lack of it, but we live on to see another day and not argue about it.

  14. #39
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Oh, happy birthday by the way.

    I hope this discussion continues and I hope I - too - can come up with an idea or two.
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  15. #40
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    But these concepts are not intellectual property. They are concepts... that's all. For something to be considered intellectual property it must have commercial value. The designs presented here do not have that value until they are deemed worthy of consideration as a final design by the contest holder.
    So that means that anything submitted before the winner is chosen is free game for ripping?

    And I am not so much talking about using generic symbols, but when two pages of designs have been posted without this specific symbol, a designer uses it, the contest holder expresses that he likes its use...all of a sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Who had the inspiration?

  16. #41
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    So that means that anything submitted before the winner is chosen is free game for ripping?
    I didn't say that. I just pointed out that you were calling something intellectual property when it is not. Obviously ripping anyone's work isn't right.

    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    And I am not so much talking about using generic symbols, but when two pages of designs have been posted without this specific symbol, a designer uses it, the contest holder expresses that he likes its use...all of a sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Who had the inspiration?
    Again, you're still talking about obvious ideas. I assume you have the Getaway Saver contest in mind and the usage of airplane graphics. What is so original about using an airplane in a travel-related logo? Things like that are fair game. Do you really expect everyone to come up with designs that have absolutely no similarity to other entries when everyone is designing for the same client? It's impossible.

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    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    Phacker,

    I used an airplane in my GetawaySaver logo. But if you notice my original design did not change and mine is one of the logo's he said he liked even before the plane. I did not use it because I saw it on someone elses post. I used it as an embellishment not as the focus. Also note my plane didn't look anything like anyone else's

    Also if you take a look once the contest holder said "I like the Nike like sweep" that was in mine about 20 different posts have them including one of yours. But none of them look like mine or are laid out in the same way. I don't have a problem with it.

    Now if someone copies your hammock you have something to gripe about. I don't think a hammock is a obvious as an airplane to a travel agency. I think you are taking this all very personal. I don't think anyone meant any harm in using a plane.

    Hope I haven't hurt your feelings but this is just my opinion.

    Deborah

  18. #43
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by css
    There are some things here and there, i just want to get everything into one spot here:

    Proposal for blind contest submissions:

    1. No submissions are to be made in the contest thread. All are PMed to the contest holder. The contest holder may not reply with feedback via PM or his thread until the submission deadline arrives.

    2. The contest holder must include a submission deadline for the contest, as well as an award deadline.

    3. Once the submission deadline arrives, the contest holder must post all submissions for public review. At the same time the contest holder must post feedback on each one.

    4. From this point the contest continues as it currently does, but no contestant may post any new concepts and no new contestants are accepted. Existing concepts may undergo an unlimited number of revisions by the designer responsible for the initial submission.

    5. The contest holder must keep the above in mind and post all dates to allow enough time for submissions and revisions. The contest holder must keep all deadlines unless emregency situations cause delays.

    Provided that the above rules are followed, things will work out naturally. Since the rules state that you can only make revisions on your own concept - the prize will be awarded to ONE contestant and the contest holder may end up asking someone else to work on improving it (should it need any improvement) AFTER the contest is over.

    Example: I like idea of this logo, but the colors are wrong and i would want it more stylish, perhaps a bit cleaner and crisper. There is a logo that is not something i want, but its done in a style i like - what do i do? Answer: Award both and flip items around using your own skills or any other designer you hire. Award the concept and work on the details uisng your own skills or any other designer you hire.

    Looking at the summary css has made I need to look at this with a moderating hat on.

    Basically how can I moderate that no feedback is given by PM - I can't
    Also in teh contest thread itself how can you say no new entries how well we know who entered and also will you gusy report a new guys?

    again its finding what works public and behind the scenes too

    Again all great ideas, I am almost looking at 2 threads first locked but sumbit designs etc etc with all info, 2nd thread posted all logos and entrants and then the contest continues as we currently have it...

    Will people still pick at others - taking Pat concerns again in here I feel that people still will edit their idea to look like another IF that is what the contest holder says he/she likes.... phew its a tough one and I would love to find a great answer that solves everything..

    Anyway continue the chatting I am learning great things and am pleased that the threads isn't getting flamed or heated its good to see discussion like this without name calling
    Regular user

  19. #44
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    I am not just talking about the Getaway contest, there are quite a few lately where no one was working along the lines of someone else, until a designer posts an entry that seems to capture the feel, then a lot of folks seem to jump on that imagery.

    I would hate to see Sitepoint become restrictive. I think it more a matter of designers having ethics and saying to themselves: "Wish I'd thought of that." Not looking for some sort of legal out to steal another's inspiration.

    "I like the Nike like sweep" that was in mine about 20 different posts have them including one of yours. But none of them look like mine or are laid out in the same way. I don't have a problem with it.
    Actually in mine that's a rainbow.

  20. #45
    Design Addict helix7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    I am not just talking about the Getaway contest, there are quite a few lately where no one was working along the lines of someone else, until a designer posts an entry that seems to capture the feel, then a lot of folks seem to jump on that imagery.

    I would hate to see Sitepoint become restrictive. I think it more a matter of designers having ethics and saying to themselves: "Wish I'd thought of that." Not looking for some sort of legal out to steal another's inspiration.
    Getting restrictive won't do anyone any good. Besides, we have bigger problems around here (non-payers, dead contests, etc). And I agree that it kind of sucks when everyone shifts gears towards something that the contest holder has praised. But at the same time, I also expect that to happen no matter what. It's a contest and money is involved, so if people see something that they think is what the contest holder might be looking for, it's no surprise that they design their logo accordingly. Nature of the beast I guess.

    My problem is still with the obvious design ideas, but at the same time I'm not sure that a distinct line can even be drawn between obvious, free-for-all conccepts and the original ones. In some cases I think the line is clear. For Getaway Saver, a plane is obvious (look at expedia.com), while a hammock is not obvious. But we coud easily argue forever over what is or isn't obvious. I can think of one good recent example of where we disagree.

    Worst of all, I'm beginning to think that there isn't any solution to all of this. Opinions differ just on what is and isn't acceptable. On top of that you'll still always have the people who just straight up steal designs. Beyond any discussion of ethics, the entire design community will always be plagued by these kinds of arguments. Again, nature of the beast...

  21. #46
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    sorry, I didn't realize it was a rainbow. But now that you mention it.

    I agree with you it does happen. It has happened to me a few times as well. And I bet there have been people on this site thinking I copied them and just not saying anything. If I have it wasn't intentional (spelling ugh) and I think that most of the people here don't do it intentionally. I have chatted with a lot of the regular people who post on this site, including you. And I believe that we all have good intentions. There are a lot of very nice people here and we get to communicate with each other. But we need to keep it positive so that feelings aren't hurt. Isn't that part of the reason we like it so much better than that other Place we talked about earlier.

    Art is very personal that is why it sparks so many emotions. But in the end we all have our own style. I have been here long enough that a lot of the time I can tell who's logo I am looking at without even seeing their screen name.

    Sorry if I babbled too much.

    Deborah

    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    Actually in mine that's a rainbow.

  22. #47
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    And I believe that we all have good intentions. There are a lot of very nice people here and we get to communicate with each other. But we need to keep it positive so that feelings aren't hurt. Isn't that part of the reason we like it so much better than that other Place we talked about earlier.
    That's very true. I just think sometimes some of the new people don't understand the ethics and the reason I pmmed Helix was to let him know that as another designer to me it looked like he was taking Bunny's calendar concept. So that in the future he'd be more sensitive to those kind of things. I wasn't trying to start a fight.

    Pat

  23. #48
    Non-Member phacker's Avatar
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    If as designers we don't police ourselves, then more and more rules will be put in place. I think we need to let the new guys know when they overstep. I am sure a lot of them will question our motives, but it's like the medical profession if we don't try and direct the new posters to what is ethical, then there are always going to be more and more overlaps and infringements.

    Pat

  24. #49
    Deborah ccs111's Avatar
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    I didn't see your pm but I do know that sometimes when we put things in writing they are perceived a lot harsher than when said face to face. For instance my husband has a friend that every time they email each other a lot they get into an arguement because both of them take each other wrong. They never have a problem when communicating face to face. Also if I have never had any contact with a person before I try not to make it negative the first time I do.

    I understand both of your points of view. I have been in his shoes before. worked on a concept half of the night then go to upload and notice that someone else has beat me to it. It is a difficult situation do you just throw it away or go ahead and post? Helix felt like you were attacking him even though you may not have been. And you felt as though you were helping him. I hope I have helped and not just stuck my nose in where it doesn't belong

    Deborah

    Quote Originally Posted by phacker
    That's very true. I just think sometimes some of the new people don't understand the ethics and the reason I pmmed Helix was to let him know that as another designer to me it looked like he was taking Bunny's calendar concept. So that in the future he'd be more sensitive to those kind of things. I wasn't trying to start a fight.

    Pat

  25. #50
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    It looks like there are two main issues that have been brought up and need to be addressed:

    1. The issue of designers (stealing/borrowing/being inspired by) the designs of others. - I personally love the way that the contests forum works now, and I'd hate to see it change just because of this issue. It seems to me that this could be addressed by some general guidelines being published regarding what is and is not acceptable. If a designer feels that someone has crossed the line, they can report it to a mod who will have the final say over what is and isn't appropriate. Seems simple enough!

    2. The issue of contest holders not picking a winner or not paying - The existing rules already cover this. It just needs to be made abundantly clear that if you start a contest you will be required to stick to the deadline, pick a winner from the entries received, and pay the winner in a timely fashion. It should also be made crystal clear that contest holders who break these rules will be BANNED! If this were strictly enforced I think that a lot of the bad apples would be weeded out and members would take contests more seriously and not just start one on a whim and then change their minds. Another thing that might help is my suggestion of implementing trader ratings.


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