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View Poll Results: Should people be executed?

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  • Yes

    38 38.38%
  • No

    47 47.47%
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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #76
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    People who are for the death penalty because they say the death penalty decreases crime should have to prove it, not the other way around.

    My questions for pro death penalty people are this:
    How, specifically, do you know that state sponsored homicide of death row inmates is is better than giving them life in prison?
    How, specifically, do you know the death penalty decreases crime?
    How, specifically, is society better because of the death penalty?
    What outcome is achieved by the death penalty that is not achieved without it? How do you know, specifically?

  2. #77
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    As for my comment, "Tim McVeigh ... deserves more than what he will receive" was not a comment for revenge but for the fact that Tim McVeigh killed not one or two people, but 168 innocent men, women and children. But that's life, he can't be executed 168 times.

    For me, I would like to take McVeigh aside and put him into care where he can be rehabilitated and cared for. If he cannot be reformed in some ways, it is best that he remains in prison, to protect us from his condition.
    This would not serve as a shread of deterrence for a criminal. If a person knew that the result of his murders would be some rehab and care, he/she would have no hesistation to commit the crime.
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  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    life incarceration is not a deterrant?

    It's worked for me a few times while visiting the bank manager.

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  4. #79
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by uwajes
    This would not serve as a shread of deterrence for a criminal. If a person knew that the result of his murders would be some rehab and care, he/she would have no hesistation to commit the crime.
    Capital punishment does not serve as a deterrent, and is not designed to be one.

    It is a hard concept to grasp. Somebody who is criminally insane does not think in terms of deterrent, as is obvious in Mr McVeigh's case. He committed the crime knowing full well that in his country, his crime was punishable by death.

    As somebody else has rightly pointed out, this is relfected in statistics. The one-tail correlation between crime in an area and the existence of capital punishment in that area is not statistically significant.
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  5. #80
    SitePoint Enthusiast emcgill's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    How, specifically, do you know that state sponsored homicide of death row inmates is is better than giving them life in prison?
    How, specifically, do you know the death penalty decreases crime?
    How, specifically, is society better because of the death penalty?
    What outcome is achieved by the death penalty that is not achieved without it? How do you know, specifically?
    1. I don't think that there is any way to prove this. I do, however, believe it is a matter of opinion. I realize that it costs almost as much to put someone to death as just to leave them in prision forever. I still believe that the death penalty should be enforced.

    2. I don't believe that death penalty itself decreases crime. There are crimes commited everyday that do not require the punishment of the death penalty. How could the death penalty not help decrease crime?

    3. Soceity is better because of the death penalty for one simple reason: the people that have been put to death, for a certain crime that they have been 100% proven to commit, is gone. They are out of soceity. Out of our lives, out of our televisions, and out of our prisions. They are gone, forever. It is a matter of opinion if you think that this is to tough of a sentance.

    4. The outcome that is acheived with the death penalty is the one that is listed in #3, they are gone, forever.

    We don't have to prove crap LuZeR. It is opinion based, just like just about everything is in this world.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Enthusiast emcgill's Avatar
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    Originally posted by freakysid
    The lack of remorse appears to be a theme amongst many of the people who advocate the manslaughter of Mr McVeigh (in this thread and an earlier one we had discussing the issue). Would McVeigh escape the death penalty according to your justice if he were to appologise for his sins?
    No, he wouldn't.

    I would be stupid to sit here and say that he would get off death row if he said he was sorry. The death penalty don't work that way. That is why I support it, simply because it makes the person take responsibilty for there actions.

    The only thing that would get this man off death row is clear evidence that he is innocent.

  7. #82
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by emcgill
    3. Soceity is better because of the death penalty for one simple reason: the people that have been put to death, for a certain crime that they have been 100% proven to commit, is gone. They are out of soceity. Out of our lives, out of our televisions, and out of our prisions. They are gone, forever. It is a matter of opinion if you think that this is to tough of a sentance.
    What about those who are 50% proven ? What about these guys who were sentenced to death quickly, and were found out to be innocent afterward ? I'm not even asking you about the differences in the way the non-white criminals are treated in Southern states, when it comes to the choice between life imprisonment and death penalty...

    I don't think it's right to just sit and say "oh well sorry for them, s**t happens".
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  8. #83
    SitePoint Enthusiast emcgill's Avatar
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    I do not believe that our government would kill anyone unless there is 100% proof they did it, or in the case that they admitted to commiting the crime.

  9. #84
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by emcgill

    2. I don't believe that death penalty itself decreases crime. There are crimes commited everyday that do not require the punishment of the death penalty. How could the death penalty not help decrease crime?
    So, what you're saying is that you don't believe the death penalty decreases crime, but that it does? I don't understand your incongruence here.

    Originally posted by emcgill

    3. Soceity is better because of the death penalty for one simple reason: the people that have been put to death, for a certain crime that they have been 100% proven to commit, is gone.
    You can't prove crap. It's all a matter of opinion, like most things in this world.

    Originally posted by emcgill

    4. The outcome that is acheived with the death penalty is the one that is listed in #3, they are gone, forever.
    How, specifically, does them being gone benefit society?

    Originally posted by emcgill
    We don't have to prove crap LuZeR. It is opinion based, just like just about everything is in this world.
    And just because I believe I am God, doesn't make it so, without some evidence.

    Originally posted by emcgill
    I do not believe that our government would kill anyone unless there is 100% proof they did it, or in the case that they admitted to commiting the crime.
    Now, I doubt you'll even take the time to look at this, but here's some info anyway. Not that it could change your beliefs anyway, because the existence of death row is probably just a belief. Can't prove it exists.
    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innoc.html

    Originally posted by emcgill
    That is why I support it, simply because it makes the person take responsibilty for there actions.
    How do dead people take responsibility for their actions? This I gotta know!!
    Last edited by Plebius; May 13, 2001 at 16:39.

  10. #85
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Chris H
    Hey LuZeR, I did read the article. But it's an academic article that bears little basis to real life. It's irrelevant what my brain waves are. They have no bearing on the truth. The article leans towards the theory that all 'religious' experiences have their root in a single trigger or source. To me it sounds remarkably like oneness theology. If someone said to me that my experience of Jesus was the same as Mr XYZ's experience of transcendental meditation I would probably be offended.
    I am aware that every religion thinks they are the only "true" religion. I don't know about that oneness theory, so I can't comment on that.

    The point I'm trying to make is that religions are basically the same process, with different content.

    Just as you have a process of posting to a message board, and the content of what you post. Just as you have the process of having a conversation, and the content of what you talk about. The process and the content are two different things. Excuse me if I'm not considering this from the viewpoint of christianity or any other religion that makes claims to be the best. I consider such claims to be only content, having no bearing on the actual process. I don't claim that somebody's experience of Jesus is the same as somebody's experience of meditation. Of course there will be different content. The man going to Prague in a car has a completely different experience from the man going by foot, but they're still going the same place. Perhaps this metaphor will explain my position: God is a conversation, and specific religions are the content.

    Hey, if trying to get different religions to respect each other is bad, then I'm guilty.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't think it was at all evident that you were "trying to get religions to respect each other", and even know If have my doubt that that was your true conviction.

    I don't expect people to agree with me when it comes to the death penalty, but I will say this: life is a privelage, and when someone does something as heinous as depriving someone else of their life, they have forfeit their own. It is not about revenge, it is about justice. Deterrence is gravy. Justice and vengeance are different things.

    And please do not come back with "Who are you to define justice?" -- I don't expect you to have the same definition of justice as I do, but I sure don't see justice as anything less than death for, say, McVeigh.

  12. #87
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Life is a privilege ?

    Well, I always thought it was written somewhere at the beginning of the Human Rights Bill that it was some kind of "Right".

    Heh, maybe that's why the US is not in the Human Rights commissions this year. (this would deserve new thread)
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  13. #88
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    You're right, we have it listed as a right: shame some people think they can go and take that right from others, isn't it? If they do, they ought to forfeit that very same right.

  14. #89
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    If you are a polarity responder, you probably won't agree with this post.

    Actually, the "right to life" comes only from the declaration of independence which has no basis in law.

    The constitution does not protect nor give the "right to life". It does, however, say that the government may not "deny" somebody "life" without due process of law.

    Of course whether there is a "right to life" legally, or not, seems to me to be irrelevant. Life is a biological fact. Gravity doesn't need human laws in order to exist, and neither does life. Human "laws" can't undo gravity either, so I... find no reason why they should be permitted to undo life.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Enthusiast Chris H's Avatar
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    LuZeR, thanks for the reply. I still think that what the article, and what you've posted, says that all religions lead to God.

    From John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    These words of Jesus are quite explicit in saying that there is no other way to God, or any other road or path. Some may view that as unjust, unfair or just plain arrogant. But that's the way it is. I think we may need a new thread if we are to continue this!

    On with the thread!

    Mahmood Mattan was hanged in the UK 49 years ago. He was wrongly convicted of murdering a shopkeeper in Tiger Bay. He was a Somali seaman who had made his home in South Wales and was married to a welsh lady. His poor grasp of the english language, together with the police withholding evidence gathered during the investigation, and likely more than a sniff of racism as he was married to a white woman, which was scandalous back then meant he did not get a fair trial, even though he had a cast-iron alibi. His wife and sons have now received 1.4 million compensation from the British government.

    I don't have any problems with the death penalty in itself. But I think that the case above highlights some of the issues that have to be dealt with before we can have confidence that justice has indeed been done. Mahmood and his family were the victims of incompetence, corruption and racism in the legal system. I think we all know that other cases of a similar nature have happened since and are happening today. The FBI has shown gross incompetence in it's handling of the evidence in the McVeigh case. That things like that could occur in such a high profile case worry me.
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  16. #91
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    Chris H,
    Exactly my thoughts too. There can be doubt whatsoever about guilt.
    To go back a bit, I'll just say that yes, I think vengeance is a prime part of why I agree with the death penalty. I would want vengeance without a doubt.

  17. #92
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    To TWT and all others who are in favor of the death penalty: I'll see you later at Death Row when everyone is convinced that you're a brutal killer while you're actually innocent Then I'll ask you how you feel about the benefits of the death penalty.

    I must agree with others in this thread that we simply shouldn't kill anyone unless there's no other way. In the case of McVeigh, there clearly is more than one way and we don't have even a single reason to kill this man. Even if we would count 'revenge' (for that is what the death penalty is) as a valid reason, then McVeigh shouldn't be killed. He has already told everyone that he wants to die.

    The reason?

    If the US executes McVeigh, he'll become a martyr for many other terrorists. Way to go, US....
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  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Who cares what he wants? I'll bet some murders say they want to stay in jail all their lives -- what they want isn't really relevant. Maybe he just wants to die NOW rather than later -- in which case I wouldn't blame him, I'd probably choose the same.

    Me on death row? If you want to play that card, then I'll play this one: I'll see you when one of your loved ones is beaten, raped and murdered, and the killer publicly mocks you and your family, disgracing your relative's death. Then I'll ask you how you feel about letting him live.

  19. #94
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    You're right, we have it listed as a right: shame some people think they can go and take that right from others, isn't it? If they do, they ought to forfeit that very same right.
    Is it just me or is this totally hypocritical!!! I'm sure that's not what you mean??

    I'll see you when one of your loved ones is beaten, raped and murdered, and the killer publicly mocks you and your family, disgracing your relative's death. Then I'll ask you how you feel about letting him live.
    For the umpteenth time - YES I WOULD hate the killer. Has this got anything to do with the fact that it is wrong to kill him as revenge?
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  20. #95
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    What I'm saying is that in the US, we are given the right to live -- others are not allowed to kill us. I think of it as a contract. When you murder someone, you've broken your end of things.

  21. #96
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Hmmm, doesn't sound very much like a right to live then...

    By the way I agreed with what you said here:
    Who cares what he wants? ... -- what they want isn't really relevant.
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  22. #97
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mmj
    For the umpteenth time - YES I WOULD hate the killer. Has this got anything to do with the fact that it is wrong to kill him as revenge?
    It was simply in reply to Elledan's post about death row. It's the same kind of logic -- "if it happened to you, you'd feel differently."


    [QUOTE]Originally posted by mmj
    Hmmm, doesn't sound very much like a right to live then... [/quote[

    Of course it is -- people of age have the right to vote, don't they? But not convicted felons -- rights need some exceptions some of the time.

    The right of freedom being compromised is something we all support in the case of murder, but do you say that right doesn't "sound very much like a right" because we punish people by taking it away?

    If you destroy someone else's life, you forfeit your own. It's not even as if it's an even trade -- because the murdered chose to kill, and the victim die not agree to die.

  23. #98
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    [B]Who cares what he wants? I'll bet some murders say they want to stay in jail all their lives -- what they want isn't really relevant. Maybe he just wants to die NOW rather than later -- in which case I wouldn't blame him, I'd probably choose the same.[b]
    Please read back, and note the word 'martyr'. Then look this word up in a dictionary if you don't know the meaning of it. After this, read your post again and notice how foolish and ignorant it sounds. You are basically saying that a serious increase in terrorist attacks is worth killing a criminal.

    Me on death row? If you want to play that card, then I'll play this one: I'll see you when one of your loved ones is beaten, raped and murdered, and the killer publicly mocks you and your family, disgracing your relative's death. Then I'll ask you how you feel about letting him live.
    In the case this would happen to my girlfriend, friend or relative, I wouldn't want to kill that person too. I wouldn't demand a reason for it. If I could arrange it, I would talk to the guy who did it, try to judge him as objective as I can and then I would either have him locked away in jail or brought to a home for the mentally ill so that he can be treated.

    I know you'll call it a foolish act, probably you won't even understand it, but it's so much better than killing people who've commited a crime.

    BTW it's ironic that the country which is more Catholic than any other Western country still doesn't understand one of the ten commandments: "Thou shall not kill"....
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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Despite your veiled insult, I full well know the definition of martyr, however I have to doubt if you really know this is the case -- is it just your take on things? I consider McVeigh's death to be justice -- do we forego justice becauses others MAY imitate? Where's the line drawn then?

    If you want to talk about being foolish and ignorant, how about your Biblical reference when anyone who knows anything knows that even The Bible gives exceptions to killing.

    Oh, and as for the "well, I still wouldn't want them to die" comment: you really don't know, just as I do not know what I would feel if on death row.

  25. #100
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    Oh, and as for the "well, I still wouldn't want them to die" comment: you really don't know, just as I do not know what I would feel if on death row.
    I know that I would feel hatred yes - and I'd probably even get a bit of pleasure if I were to kill him - but I'd still know deep down that killing him is wrong, is not going to prove anything, and is only a by-product of my own emotions. That's why my opinion on capital punishment would not change. I certainly wouldn't change my opinion on human rights or capital punishment, just because of a chip on my shoulder.

    Dealing with a tragedy such as thing is a very big issue, and I imagine that I would need a good deal of psychological evaluation. If in my psychological condition I actually planned to kill him, I'd want the authorities to lock ME up.
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