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Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #276
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind is that people living on this earth are already "dead" spritually unless they are believer. When Jesus was talking to Zaccheus he said "man, you must be born again".

    I believe there are portions of the Bible that should be taken literally and portions which should be taken figuratively or symbolically. I'm not saying that this is necessarily one of those areas, but it could be. That's one of the beautiful things about the Bible, it is so open to interpretation that it forces the reader to realyl study if they want to get the true meaning.
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  2. #277
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    WOOHOO 12 pages - my work here is done...

    TWT - I still disagree, I just wanted to make those points about Leviticus!

    We can pull the Bible apart till the cows-come-home, it won't change this one thing;

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    AMEN to that!

    (by the way - useful resource for bible quotes; http://www.unboundbible.org/)

  3. #278
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link -- and amen indeed. As much as we want to argue about all this, it comes down to that one verse. It's been a pleasure.

  4. #279
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    A Pleasure indeed!

    Now where is Hellbent with those verses...

  5. #280
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Originally posted by creole
    See...you ARE going to hell after all. Out drinking instead of here on SitePoint.

    Your right what was I thinking?. I mean i had the chance to chat here but yet I still opted to go out with a good lookign woman for drinks? What could possibly be wrong with me?
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  6. #281
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    About hypocracy... I will forgoe the quoting of scripture and base my argument from my memory.

    One of the ten Commandments was "thou shall not kill"

    Gods Actions: He drowned every man woman and child on the earth who was not of Noahs bloodline.

    "turn the other cheek"

    Gods actions: Lucifer and a third of the angels turned on God, He cast them down into the brimstone <- doesent seem very pacifistic to me

    "Thou shall not Kill (2)" <- I really want to drive this one home

    Gods Actions : (onesmall verse i lied) 1:1
    Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

    1:2
    And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

    1:3
    And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

    1:4
    And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

    1:5
    And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.


    Slew ten thousand? You mean "Killed" ... Wow god said NOT to do this but he makes exceptions when it benifits him? Hmm

    I could go on all day. Like I have previously stated i am not Christian however by your rules, you should not endorse the death penalty. However by logic I agree with you, Certain people need to be destroyed.
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  7. #282
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    First off, let me say that you are about the a gajillionth person to bring up the "why did God kill the Canaanites" argument. All I can say is that I don't have an answer for that. But, keep in mind that based on God's laws, those people deserved death anyway. I deserve death, so do you and so does Chris. God is omniscient and knows whether those people were ever going to turn to him.

    Maybe they would have, maybe they would have continued on in their pagan lives, we'll never know. The thing that is different about me (from them) is that I have a personal relationship with God.

    The one thing that I know though is that God is just, and fair. He allows each of us the opportunity to lead holy lives. If you can follow ALL of the commandments in the Bible then you can EARN your place in Heaven. However, fail just once and God's judgement is upon you.

    In contrast is the FREE gift of Grace that God offers us through Jesus. He knew that we would fail in our attempts to be holy and created a way for Him to have fellowship with US.

    Jesus

    Technically it IS possible for man to be holy. Christ did it and he was man.
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  8. #283
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Hellbent, you obviously know enough of The Bible and Christianity to realize that we all hold the belief that we deserve death, and always will. As such, God can most definintely take our lives -- although if we believe in Him, we will not lose the ONE thing of importance we have: our soul.

    He said Thou Shalt Not Kill to US.

  9. #284
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Hold up y'all this is the actual command -

    Exodus 20:13
    "You shall not murder."

    God doesn't have to justify himself anyway - He is God - he could end everything in an instant if he wanted!?

    He is a God of Love AND Severity.

  10. #285
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
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    As someone who doesn't hold with all this religious malarkey, I'd like to offer my own views on what God said/what Jesus said.
    For the wandering Israelites, travelling nomadically through hostile lands, the 'eye for an eye' thing was a necessary lesson in survival, do not be weak, stand and fight, look after your own. I believe that religion was a tool used to control the 'flock', not necessarily in a bad way, but as a means of establishing authority that the people could look to for guidance. And for them, in that period, such a philosophy served them excellently.
    In Jesus' time, it was much more political. An 'eye for an eye', 'Lex Talionis' philosophy would merely have resulted in the Jews getting their asses kicked by the Romans. Hence we see 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' (IMO one of the smartest answers in history) and 'turn the other cheek'. Any other philosophy would have probably seen the Jews involved in a fight to the death with Rome. No, Jesus was a canny operator who did not want to irritate a much more powerful nation which already had the Jews in Bondage.
    I believe this isthe true explanation for the quotes which have occupied the last few pages. At least, it is the simplest explanation, and therefore the most likely, i.e Occam's razor.

  11. #286
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Polymath
    Hence we see 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's' (IMO one of the smartest answers in history)
    Y'know it!

  12. #287
    Tenacious T Tyhe's Avatar
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    The bible is a mysterious book...

    But not that mysterious to me. I don't think it was written by the hand of God... or by anyone who knew God, was led by God or saw God.

    It was written by some old people who got tired of the way people were and tried to organize it...

    They made up some stories, or wrote down some that they had heard...

    Then they put rules in there... rules to protect themselves.

    The whole bible is written in a time, and breathes this time. An almighty, all knowing god, would have done differently.
    Women would be equal, killing would be wrong, no matter what...

    And TWT: We should send people up to god to be judged???
    This is just absurd! Who are you to decide who's time it is to be judged?? Cause that makes me think you should be judged too, just to see if you are right...
    God has not given "US" any responsibility... WE are nothing.. grains of sand in an endless desert... We don't have to send people up to be judged.. that is just terrible.

    God should be love, and yet ALL religions seem to think hate against other religions is the way to go. It's too bad there is no god, cause those who are in charge of spreading religion would burn in hell, for taking religion and using and abusing it for their own good - even though this 'good' is not money!

    Religion makes me sick.

    Love because you love. Don't love because the book said so. This world and it's beautiful nature is being destroyed cause people don't take a stand... they have to follow, like pinguins.
    Follow the book, Saddam Hoessein, the Devil, it doesn't matter one bit.
    You die, you are dead. End of story.

    What makes believers that life in there awesome houses with all that their hearts desire so special?? They are the same people that don't do crap when people die all over the world.
    All they do is judge.
    And we all do, but at least I don't say that it's okay cause I believe.

    People are selfish, just like animals. We want to eat, survive... screw the rest. Just do that, do start making excuses and saying this book, a book that is so friggin unuasuable in this day and time, will make sure you go to "heaven".

    How come we are so intelligent, but instead of facing reality, we have each other convinced that we will go to a beautiful place one we die... at least.. as long as we follow this book that was written thousands of years ago... sure, believe in an invisible old man who knows all we do.. and let me tell you... hell is where you're going... cause NO ONE is like jezus, NO ONE is good enough for this imaginary heaven.

    And why can't god give us an update??? Bible Millennium Edition or something?? Why doesn't he guide someone now to correct the mistakes or obsolete parts of the bible???

    You people will be so dissapointed.
    That's all folks...

  13. #288
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Suggest you read this book my friend;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...839744-2684642

    I think you'll also find that God instructed no one to add or take away from the Bible - so we can't really have an update can we?!

    But God does actually give us updates to his plans, through the Prophetic - suggest you check this book out;
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...839744-2684642

    You are right, no one is good enough for heaven - it is through the Cross that we are redeemed.

    You are also right about our Western culture and the fact that we live in houses that would be the envy of Kings just a century ago. Unfortunately it is a culture we were born into and many of us are blind to our greed and self-importance.

    Religion and the church are responsible for a lot of bad stuff (and some will pay for this in the end).
    But it's not about going to church or following the Bible word for word - it's about relationship with Jesus Christ and until you feel the POWER of his Holy Spirit surging through your body I doubt you will believe.

    I have experienced too much of Gods (and Satans) power in my life - I have even tried to run and hide from the truth but I can never forget these experiences.

    TWT, you're up...

  14. #289
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Polymath: I don't buy Occam's Razor half the time. Simple is a subjective term. Remember the movie "Contact", where she mentions Occam's Razor, and says this:

    "Well, what's simpler: that an all-powerful God created the universe and left no real proof of his existence -- or that we just made him up?"

    You can phrase that another way...

    "What's simpler: that millions of humanoid-like mutations of us have evolved and died out over billions of years on a planet that showed up as the result of a giant chaotic explosion, or that God created this and it has order and meaning?"

    I don't see why the simplest answer is always true -- is there evidence for this anyway? Either way simplest is a subjective term -- too subjective for me to make any important decisions based on Occam's Razor.


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    The bible is a mysterious book...

    But not that mysterious to me. I don't think it was written by the hand of God... or by anyone who knew God, was led by God or saw God.

    It was written by some old people who got tired of the way people were and tried to organize it...

    They made up some stories, or wrote down some that they had heard...

    Then they put rules in there... rules to protect themselves.
    Well, about 4 paragraphs of rhetoric. I could respond with 4 of my own, but statements like that don't tend to push the conversation along much, so I'll refrain for now.


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    The whole bible is written in a time, and breathes this time. An almighty, all knowing god, would have done differently.
    Women would be equal, killing would be wrong, no matter what...

    And TWT: We should send people up to god to be judged???
    This is just absurd! Who are you to decide who's time it is to be judged?? Cause that makes me think you should be judged too, just to see if you are right...
    God has not given "US" any responsibility... WE are nothing.. grains of sand in an endless desert... We don't have to send people up to be judged.. that is just terrible.
    Who are we? We are the custodians of this planet, and we should do the best we can. Why is it absurd? Is it more absurd than letting someone who has killed a dozen innocent lives LIVE? I think we all agree such scum is not worthy of life -- we just disagree on whether or not to act on that belief.

    I should be judged to? And why? I've never murdered anyone, and I never will. Who am I to decide? I'm no one -- who are you to decide we shouldn't? This is a public forum wherein we state our opinions and discuss them openly -- and that's mine. I don't claim it as absolute fact, I claim it as a strong belief. That clear things up a bit?


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    God should be love, and yet ALL religions seem to think hate against other religions is the way to go. It's too bad there is no god, cause those who are in charge of spreading religion would burn in hell, for taking religion and using and abusing it for their own good - even though this 'good' is not money!

    Religion makes me sick.
    Tyhe, I want you to pay very close attention right now, to these two quotes of yours...

    God should be love, and yet ALL religions seem to think hate against other religions is the way to go.

    and then this...

    Religion makes me sick.

    Don't tell me God should be love, and religions should stop hating each other, when you obviously have a deep-rooted hatred for religion.

    And besides, that argument lacks basic logic. The Bible does not preach to hate other religions -- it preaches to disagree with them openly, but it does not say to kill them just because they believe something different.

    I also hope you realize that trying to hold the religion of Christianity for the horrible things SOME Christians have done is no better than me trying to hold you responsible for the holocaust, or generalizing about a person based on their race.

    You know VERY well a person who follows The Bible well does not engage in such hateful acts. Knock the people, not the religion. It's the only common-sense thing to do.


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    Love because you love. Don't love because the book said so. This world and it's beautiful nature is being destroyed cause people don't take a stand... they have to follow, like pinguins.
    Follow the book, Saddam Hoessein, the Devil, it doesn't matter one bit.
    You die, you are dead. End of story.
    I'm quite sure I didn't understand about half of that. I don't see what you're saying about following, or Saddam Hussein. Could you please explain?


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    What makes believers that life in there awesome houses with all that their hearts desire so special?? They are the same people that don't do crap when people die all over the world.
    All they do is judge.
    And we all do, but at least I don't say that it's okay cause I believe.
    Who has EVER told you that they feel okay with not helping others in need because they are religious? Anyone? Anyone at all? I've never heard anyone say this in all my life, and I've spent plenty of time around others of my religion.

    Why is our life special? Well, we're blessed enough to be serving under the Lord, we are blessed enough to be alive, and we are blessed enough to live in a wonderful/free country, with plenty of food and a high standard of living.


    Originally posted by Tyhe
    People are selfish, just like animals. We want to eat, survive... screw the rest. Just do that, do start making excuses and saying this book, a book that is so friggin unuasuable in this day and time, will make sure you go to "heaven".
    Just a minute ago you said that we should love to love, and not because of The Bible. But now you say we are selfish, just like animals. Which is it: can we just be nice to each other, or are we sinful by nature?

    Oh, and as for selfishness, as we talked about before: can you name any other species on this planet that gives ANY thought at all to the well-being of creatures other than itself and it's family? A lion will look after any children it has, but it doesn't care about global warming, it doesn't study things, and it doesn't try to save endangered species.

    We have a way to go, but we are far and away the least selfish species on this planet. We save animals every day, and we have a system in place. We're nowhere near animals. We have justice for those of us who kill, unlike animals. We have programs to help the weak and needy, unlike animals, who might just eat their weak.

    Oh, and perhaps The Bible is unusable for you, but it's not for around 30% of the world. Quite frankly, I think you're wrong. I think you could find use for it indeed, if you cared about it at all. It's easy to call it unusable when you see no use for it, isn't it?


    Originally posted by Tyhe
    How come we are so intelligent, but instead of facing reality, we have each other convinced that we will go to a beautiful place one we die... at least.. as long as we follow this book that was written thousands of years ago... sure, believe in an invisible old man who knows all we do.. and let me tell you... hell is where you're going... cause NO ONE is like jezus, NO ONE is good enough for this imaginary heaven.
    I'm getting a little frustrated. Either you know very little about this religion, or you simply choose to "play dumb" and force me to explain things.

    Reading The Bible and trying to mold your life in it's nature is indeed something every Christian should do, but salvation is achieved through belief in The Lord and what He did for us. I don't know about you, but crucification scares me to no end.

    Tell me what you believe in Tyhe: a random explosion that came out of nothing? Millions of humanoid creatures, mutated versions of us, that came and went? Billions of other planets with the same thing happening? Do you ACTUALLY believe the human retena is the result of evolution? I hope not. Even Darwin admitted that as a bit of a flaw in his theory, from my understanding of it.

    And yes Tyhe: we deserve Hell. We have shunned the very Being who have us life. We do so every day up until now, and will every day afterwards. This is why myself and others are so amazed at God's Grace. He's willing to forgive these horrible things, so long as we recognize them.

    It's almost like talking to a child about what they did wrong: sometimes you ask them why you're upset with them, to make sure they REALIZE what it is they've done. They have to be aware of what they did, specifically, to get into trouble. So do we.


    Originally posted by Tyhe

    And why can't god give us an update??? Bible Millennium Edition or something?? Why doesn't he guide someone now to correct the mistakes or obsolete parts of the bible???

    You people will be so dissapointed.
    Very funny. Once again, either you know about our religion and realize The Bible is timeless, or you're just baiting me into another long explanation. Either way, I'm a bit annoyed.

  15. #290
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Well oddly enough Tyhe and me agree on something. Religion is a joke. You honestly expect me to believe that god could not get his words to man in a more complete and irrefutable form than the Bible? All the people on this earth with their various religions interpret the Bible differently. So if it was God's intention to give unto man his word, then at the very best he is incompetent. If I were his boss he would be fired without severance.

    Also someone mentioned God was Omniscient. What a load of dung, if he was so omniscient why didnít he destroy the third of the angels that turned on him before he turned? Why did he not intercept the serpent in the Garden? Why did he make a wager with Lucifer over the fate of Jobe?

    I do not mean to offend however it seems odd you people can seriously believe this. Why not believe in dwarves and unicorns as well?
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  16. #291
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    There is no evidence for dwarves or unicorns.

    Look at the world around you: do you believe it came about by chance? I do not. Things are too complex. Things make too much sense some times. There's a massive document, which is, even by some non-believers, considered an incredible work, which supports Jesus Christ. Around 30% of the world, as of 1998, believed in Jesus specifically, and most people you run into believe in some sort of God.

    If you ask me, you're in the minority here.

    Why didn't he do any of that? Well, sometimes there are lessons to be learned. He did not intercept the serpent in the Garden, for example, because he left the decision up to us as human beings. I don't necessarily like the idea of a God interfering everywhere and all the time.

    He does not dictate that way. He gives us a choice, and we make it.

    Quite frankly, I see The Bible as incredible. God's intention was to pass His Word to us, and he has. I don't see how The Bible is incompetent because we interpret it in various ways: why is it God that is incompetent, and not US?

    I'm not offended by your comments, but I do think they're way out there. You act as if there's simply no good reason to believe in this. Well, I say, speak for yourself.

  17. #292
    I am the night... bman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hellbent
    Why not believe in dwarves and unicorns as well?
    Dwarves and Unicorns lost there tickets to get on the Arc, thats why there are none.

    (Sorry i just thougt this thread needed a little humor thrown in)
    Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
    From what I've tasted of desire
    I hold with those who favor fire.

  18. #293
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    God healed me of Asthma when I was. 10
    He has also found me a beautiful American woman to be my wife (a pretty cool story - we are just waiting for him to confrim it).
    The Bible is the No1 best selling book ever - so nah!

    Actually dwarves are real - they are the little people who played the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi! - I think its called Dwarvism or something...

  19. #294
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Very funny. Once again, either you know about our religion and realize The Bible is timeless, or you're just baiting me into another long explanation. Either way, I'm a bit annoyed
    Of the many things I could have picked holes in, this one will take the least of my time.

    1: There is no "The Bible". Depending which religion you follow, and what flavour of that religion you subscribe to, there are many different versions of the Bible.

    2: If it is "timeless", then a: Why did the new testament only exist after Christ and b: Why did it take several centuries to produce, with bits being added along the way. Several "Bible" based religions have "added" bits to it, notwithstanding the empircal nature of its intial creation.

    3: If the the Bible is timeless guide to a "good" lifestyle, then how do you reconcile the blatant contradictions between the old testament (based as they were on "timeless" scriptures) and the New testament (basically an early historical journalism attempt).

    H
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  20. #295
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    There is only ONE actual Bible - just lots of Translations!
    (the Koran isn't the No1 bestseller is it now?)

    For the record I never said the Bible was timeless - I'll leave that to TWT - although I do think you are taking it out of context a little in what he was addressing.
    i.e. he never said it was a timeless guide to a good life style - we'd still be sacrificing goats otherwise - it is a pretty accurate historical document though!

  21. #296
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH


    Of the many things I could have picked holes in, this one will take the least of my time.

    1: There is no "The Bible". Depending which religion you follow, and what flavour of that religion you subscribe to, there are many different versions of the Bible.

    2: If it is "timeless", then a: Why did the new testament only exist after Christ and b: Why did it take several centuries to produce, with bits being added along the way. Several "Bible" based religions have "added" bits to it, notwithstanding the empircal nature of its intial creation.

    3: If the the Bible is timeless guide to a "good" lifestyle, then how do you reconcile the blatant contradictions between the old testament (based as they were on "timeless" scriptures) and the New testament (basically an early historical journalism attempt).

    H
    1 - There is one Bible. We have translatd it poorly at tmies, but there is only one Bible.

    2 - The New Testament could not have been written until Christ had died for our sins. It began creation shortly after this. The New Testament provides us with perspective on things after the fact.

    3 - The Bible is timeless -- you cannot chop up one half and compare it to the other. Compare different parts of the same Book -- there's a sublte difference there.

    I don't see these contradictions the same way you do. The Bible says to be merciful, but tells you to punish offenders -- is that a contradiction? I do not believe it is.

  22. #297
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    By the way: when I say The Bible is timeless, I am referring to it's value. Following it's principles is still valuable today, and will be 1,000 years from now. It provides many sound lessons on life.

  23. #298
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Ride that horse baby!

  24. #299
    Chikin Choker Hellbent's Avatar
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    Minority am I? I am pleased with that terminology. I have always had a small ... well who am I kidding a great amount of contempt for those who are not free thinkers. I hate nothing more than to see Christians brainwashing their children. Much like rascism Christianity is a learned behavior, and in my oppinion just as repulsive. Now dont get me wrong, I have no issue with someone who studies the word and then accepts it (Although I do beleive those individuals to be highly susceptable, and would beleive anything if it were in the bible). My beef is with these "pseudo" christians that blanket the earth. The ones who dont investigate for themselves but simply accept what they have been taught. i guess the proper terminology for them is "Followers".
    Straight from the TP! And I don't mean the Trailer Park.

  25. #300
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    I was bought up a Christian and was 'brain-washed' with it to an extent BUT I got to the end of my teens and got pretty disilluitoned with it so tried to do things my own way - got into drinking, drugs, ladies, nightclubs, etc - but it never satisfied and it lead up to me being hospitalised with Meningitis on my 19th Birthday.
    That wasn't enough - a few nasty relationships later and the realisation that there is no other love like the love of Jesus/God - totally unconditional, soon bought me back 'prodigal son styleee'...

    Now, there is a chap called Mahesh Chavda who was bought up in a Hindu home and had an AMAZING conversion to Christianity and that is a long story but proves that Christianity is not a learned behaviour.

    He has written a book - you could read it if you are feeling open minded, it's called; Only Love can make a miracle.


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