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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    To all designers who ignore users at 640*480, or those who use Netscape, arguing that they are almost mythical creatures........how many peeps you know use a mac?

    Last month, there were 5 times more people browsing at 640*480 than there were using a mac.....see

    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/March/os.html
    and
    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/March/res.html

    There were 10 times more people using netscape than there were using a mac:

    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/March/os.html

    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/March/browser.html


    How about Javascript?

    There were nearly TWENTY times more people browsing without it than browsing with a mac.

    http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/March/javas.html



    Why did I choose the mac? Well, I know loads of peeps that use them , and I suspect most forum users do to. I'm sure that most would not willingly alienate them, yet lots are quite willling to alienate users to a far higher factor through sheer snobbery.

    Your thoughts??

    H
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Never said that I try to alienate Mac users. I make sure to test my sites on Mac and optimize as needed to make sure they work. In the industry that most of my clients are in (the music industry), to ignore Mac users is to ignore the people making the decisions.
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  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    lol - wasn't directed at anyone in particular Creole!

    You obviously do the right thing knowing your audience and making sure that things are funky for them. Do you ignore non-js users? They amount to 20 times more than mac users.....
    (I have to say that I do use mouseover effects etc...bt nothing that will kill the site on non-js browsers).

    If ya fancy a laugh, check some sites out at www.dejavu.org

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  4. #4
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    hmmm... food for thought.

    Yes, my new site design accomodates users with 640x480, with netscape 4.x and users without javascript.

    It is even designed to print well without colours, and to look good without stylesheets.

    But I have never tested it on a mac yet. Having not received any negative comments from mac users I know, I assume it is fine. [Mac users: do you think my site looks okay with its current fonts?]

    But yes, I try to accomodate everyone, yet am unable to test locally on a mac.

    H, interesting [deja vu] site. Does anybody have a screenshot or local copy of early yahoo? It has changed so gradually I didn't even notice it go from small cool links directory to mega global corporation. It would be cool to see a snapshot of what the Yahoo site looked like back in 1993 - I could relive my adolescence.

    Remember Gopher? hehe. anyone seen a good gopher site recently?
    Last edited by mmj; May 1, 2001 at 06:53.
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  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    whew...

    I guess those browsers are all version 1? I tried one of my clients sites (done in frames) in IE and it didn't load, although the individual pages loaded.

    Scary.

    Once I loaded the individual pages, they looked surprisingly good though. I took a look at amazon.com and it looked almost identical. Pretty impressive.
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  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    Oh...by the way. I don't ignore non-JS users, but I also don't cater to them either. I don't do all this dHTML hocus-pocus. I tend to use JS for rollovers and minor detection.

    Again though, the audience I design for tends to have the most current browsers and uses JS so I'm pretty OK there.
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Addict SLeon's Avatar
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    I used to have (sort of still have) this idiot boss who LOVES Macs who is always carping, "30% of small business owners use Macs, we need to design for them, blah blah blah!" I have no idea where she got her statistic. Next time she starts going off on how all the web design needs to be Mac-centric I think I'm going to challenge her on where she gets her numbers, LOL... Thanks for the facts, H, good stuff to remember
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  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard johntabita's Avatar
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    mmj,

    Your site look great on my Mac. It re-sizes nicely as well. It looks like you are using both Verdana & Arial/Helvetica, which are common on both platforms.

    With CSS, I can easily get my sites to look consistent on both platforms. I have a harder time getting tables to function the same in both browers. It seems that if I get them to work in IE, but not NN, whatever fix I use to get it working in NN screws it up in IE!

  9. #9
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SLeon
    I used to have (sort of still have) this idiot boss who LOVES Macs who is always carping, "30% of small business owners use Macs, we need to design for them, blah blah blah!" I have no idea where she got her statistic. Next time she starts going off on how all the web design needs to be Mac-centric I think I'm going to challenge her on where she gets her numbers, LOL... Thanks for the facts, H, good stuff to remember
    Tell your boss that 35% of all statistics are made up and that 50% of people are gullible enough to believe them.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    lol - sid you cynic...

    (and it's 37.5% by the way )

    H
    Last edited by TheOriginalH; May 2, 2001 at 01:21.
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I'm going to continue to ignore 640x480 Designing for such a low resolution reaches very few people, and seriously handicapps my site for 95%+ of my visitors. I don't ignore Macs, but I think, like most people, the sites I run look best in IE 4 and above using a plain old PC on 1024x780, or 800x600.

  12. #12
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Thanks johntabita! Very helpful.

    mmj on statistics:
    Even though 40% of statistics are made up on the spot, general wisdom has proven that all statistics are either controlled lies or uncontrolled lies. We get off on a technicality.
    [mmj] My magic jigsaw
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Illustrating the point perfectly twt

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Member
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    Okay... so there are many Netscape users (still...) and Mac users. Now, I can understand why one would design for Macs, too... But, don't you find it a bit of a pain in the @ss?

    I mean, beta testing on different browsers in a PC is hard enough, but to do it in Mac also?

    Sometimes it makes me wish for Microsoft to just take over the entire world and enforce their law and products... wait... no, it doesn't.

  15. #15
    Team SitePoint AlexW's Avatar
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    I think there are some interesting points that have been made, but I'm not sure we should take those stats at face value.

    Maybe it's me, but 1 in 5 browsers have no JS enabled ??? Possibly we all spend too much time in the 'rarified air' of bleeding edge web development (*tongue-in-cheek*), but it's hard to believe that that statistic doesn't have more to do with the measurement method, or search-engine robots or some other skewing factor, than it does with reality.
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I find it similarly surprising - and there may be a data skewing factor,...but as I said - it's food for thought

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  17. #17
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Lies, damned lies and statistics. One thing to note is that (AFAIK) those stats posted by Mr H are for visitors to the internet.com network of web sites. How this audience might deviate from the universal polulation of web users - I don't know, but I will observe that those sites are very industry oriented.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that they were the collective stats for all users of "thecounter.com" (I used to be one). I may be entirely wrong of course!

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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    Currently delving into Django, GIT & CentOS

  19. #19
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Statistically, I am most probably wrong I did not look into the site enough. Interestingly, there is no clear explaination that the stats are indeed collected from thecounter.com websites.

    But then again - if I had read the thecounter.com homepage I would have read this
    Global Statistics
    Global Statistics offer you a peek at our mega-report, which combines the traffic reports from our more than 1 million customers worldwide. Find out how Internet users are viewing the Web.
    I'm out of here before I cause myself further embarrassment
    Last edited by freakysid; May 2, 2001 at 09:04.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard johntabita's Avatar
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    You really do not have to "design for a Mac" or "design for a PC". Just use stylesheets to control your font size & your page will look pretty much the same on both. Then ask a couple of Mac users you know to make sure nothing funky is happening. It's not that much work.

    For example, I design on a Mac, so I know what it's going to look like there. I don't even test my design on a PC untill I'm pretty far into the design process, because I know it will look fairly consistant to what I'm seeing on my Mac.

    I primarily beta-test on a PC to be sure that the page isn't breaking up or images spliting apart.


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