Are externeal forms illegal?

[aa_memon]

I don't really know if I am posting this in the right forum, but here goes:

I am starting a portal for a really small town in Alberta Canada.

One of my pre-launch reviewers suggested that I have different search engines and different email logins from the same form. Meaning: right now when you go to the site you will see a email login box that is for my everyone.net email services but at the bottom there is a radio button where you can select hotmail and you will be able to login to hotmail. The same with search engines right now by selecting the desired radio button you can search different search engines with the same form.

I wanted to know if this was legal because I really would like to use this more often for stock quotes and weather etc.

[maximumedge]

it's hard to say whether that's legal or not since these types of issues are relatively new. however, i highly doubt that any company would sue you over something as minor as that. the site should be more than happy that you're sending them traffic.

also, i can see the usefullness of linking to other search engines and weather sites and such, but why would you need to link to hotmail? you would be better off only promoting your own e-mail service instead.

Jason Weinstein
webmaster@MaximumEdge.com
http://www.MaximumEdge.com/

[mfarmerhi]

no, nothing "illegal" about linking to a site's home page (assuming they don't have a restraining order against you!)

[maximumedge]

Originally posted by mfarmerhi
no, nothing "illegal" about linking to a site's home page (assuming they don't have a restraining order against you!)

i wouldn't say that linking is definitely not illegal. as i mentioned, it's a difficult issue to determine as it's a grey area that hasn't been completely covered by the legal system yet. there have been many related lawsuits in the past, including a famous one between microsoft and ticketmaster. the basis for this case was that microsoft had linked to pages inside ticketmaster's web site through microsoft's citysearch.com site. ticketmaster claimed that trademark violations had been made and that they only wanted traffic to enter through the main page of the site. the lawsuit was eventually settled, however, before the trial ended.

Jason Weinstein
webmaster@MaximumEdge.com
http://www.MaximumEdge.com/

[mfarmerhi]

From the facts as explained, there is nothing illegal.

It is not a "difficult issue" and it is not a grey area. There is considerable case precedence clarifying the issues here.

The ticketmasters (et. al.) case you refer to involved "deep linking" wherein Microsoft was accused under trademark law and misappropriation under legal theories of misattribution and loss profits - completely different circumstances than discussed in aa_memon's post.

Again, as I said in my previous post - absent charges of "Website trespass" (which is a gray area) there is nothing illegal about linking to a sites front page.

[maximumedge]

Originally posted by mfarmerhi
Again, as I said in my previous post - absent charges of "Website trespass" (which is a gray area) there is nothing illegal about linking to a sites front page.

aa_memon mentioned nothing about linking to the front page, he was asking about whether it was okay to place a form into deep areas of other web sites, such as to log into hotmail.

Jason Weinstein
webmaster@MaximumEdge.com
http://www.MaximumEdge.com/

[mfarmerhi]

The following is not meant to be a legal opinion. A legal opinion would depend on the specific facts and circumstances as well as the jurisdiction. You should seek legal counsel for specific legal questions
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deep? - as in the email frontpage (if you have an account) of the email error page (if you don't have a page)?

Read (or reread) the Microsoft case - that, and other cases alledging similar misconduct - involve either cases involving deep linking several levels down - thereby misappropriating possible revenue from advertisers/affiliates - or by "framing" the results within the infringing web site - so as to cause confusion.

aa_memon 's site does neither - both his web search and his email log in (the two considerations that he brought to the forum) link to "front pages" (i.e. the front page of Hotmails member page, or the front page of Google search results.)

Maybe the confusion for you is coming from an assumption that sites have to have only one front page? Take Yahoo for instance - depending on the service you're using there are many "front pages." If you want a search you can go to http://yahoo.com . On the other hand if you are checking your yahoo email account you can proceed directly to the mail frontpage http://mail.yahoo.com . If you want your own homepage on Yahoo the front page is http://my.yahoo.com . The top domain name does not have to be the "front page." Neither is a Web site limited to only one "front page."

In any case neither of aa_memon's two links remove or obscure the service providers trademark, tradedress, tradename or source of origination. As I've said in many of my previous posts the question of "can you be sued" is always answered "yes." You "can" be sued for anything. Now whether the lawsuit will be thrown out or whether you would be vindicated in court - only the judge knows, and that may depend on his mood that day. But as to aa_memon's questions regarding aa_memon's facts - there does not appear to be anything "illegal."

[aa_memon]

sorry to bother you again but I still need a little more explaination of the term "deep".

when you use the term "front page", I think of http://www.hotmail.com or whatever that address changes to after the redirect.

I don't know if you have looked at my site http://www.netinnovated.com/peaceaccess

but if http://www.hotmail.com is the "front page" well than I am skipping the "front page".

As for the MSN loosing money over this, well the "front page" as I know it does not have any ads.

sorry again but I needed some more clarification.

[mfarmerhi]

The following is not meant to be a legal opinion. A legal opinion would depend on the specific facts and circumstances as well as the jurisdiction. You should seek legal counsel from a qualified attorney for specific legal questions
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Hey aa_memon,

Don't worry about asking for clarifications.

First let me note (as far as precedence that I've read) that "Front Page," is not a legal term of art, meaning that it has no specific legal definition.

As you correctly pointed out in your prior post, "when you use the term "front page", I think of http://www.hotmail.com or whatever that address changes to after the redirect." (My emphasis added.) A site's front page or front pages may actual resolve at an entirely different Web address than that you originally typed in. To restate this, a top level domain name is not necessarily, by default the "home page."

As the term has been used, thus far, in prior precedent setting cases here in the US (I notice you are writing from and based in Canada) typically as a primary entry point for a Web site or service. As I wrote in my prior note, a Web service such as Yahoo, Hotmail, or Google may offer many different services - each with their separate "home page" (i.e. primary point of entry). Thus, if you open a Yahoo store (hosted and contained wholly on Yahoo's site) your "front page" is your primary, public entry point to your store NOT http://yahoo.com.

Think of it like a large shopping mall occupying a full city block: where is the front of the mall? Certainly the shopping mall will have a specific street address (1600 Any Street, Anytown, State), but except for smaller malls with only one main entrance, most large city malls will have several entrances, all accessible from major streets. It would be foolish to ask, "Yea, but what's your main entrance?"

"Deep Linking," as illustrated by cases such as Ticketmasters, involved direct links between a Microsoft site and Ticketmasters' pages several levels down (e.g. yahoo.com/thenextlevel/anotherleverl/thefinalpage.html ). One of Ticketmasters arguments (there were many) was that by providing a direct link - without requiring the browser to go individually to 1) Yahoo, 2) the next level, 3) another level, 4) the final page.html, Ticketmasters was losing out on opportunities to convey advertising and make sales on the first three levels. This type of linking may create problems for a direct linking site for the same arguments advanced in Ticketmasters.

aa_memon, Hotmail's not having advertising on the Web page resolving at http://hotmail.com is not the only potential problem that a linking site could be sued for. Again, using Ticketmasters for illustrations point, another argument made there was that the source of the Ticketmasters services may have been confused with Microsoft's Web site. Source confusion is a potential cause of action (reason to sue) in Trademark cases.

If your site (or another site) were set up to disguise or hide the actual service provider (i.e. by framing hotmail's pages on your site, or saying "Google service provided by: My Site") you could have potential problems. When I glanced at your site I didn't see you, in any way, insinuating that you were the service provider, or hiding, framing, otherwise altering the pages of Hotmail and Google. Second your pages linked to one of the primary entry points for each of the services.

Look aa_memon, if you want the best protection possible hire a Canadian Intellectual Property and Internet attorney and ask him to provide you with a written opinion letter. Aside from that you are wise to continue to ask question, don't take anyone's word for it, and investigate everything you can yourself.
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Again, just for clarity's sake: The following is not meant to be a legal opinion. A legal opinion would depend on the specific facts and circumstances as well as the jurisdiction. You should seek legal counsel from a qualified attorney for specific legal questions
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[maximumedge]

Originally posted by mfarmerhi
aa_memon 's site does neither - both his web search and his email log in (the two considerations that he brought to the forum) link to "front pages" (i.e. the front page of Hotmails member page, or the front page of Google search results.)

aa_memon's site definitely is a form of deep linking. the form does not redirect to hotmail's front page, but rather inside hotmail's member area. furthermore, this area is even protected by a secure server (via https). this is obviously not the front page of hotmail's site.

however, the likelyhood of microsoft persuing legal action against you is incredibly small, and i suggest not even worrying about this situation. even if this highly unlikely situation did occur, microsoft would first contact you about the problem before filing a lawsuit. in that case, i would suggest removing the deep links.

Jason Weinstein
webmaster@MaximumEdge.com
http://www.MaximumEdge.com/

[mfarmerhi]

That's an interesting opinion maximumedge - do you have any legal precedence to back it up? And how does legal estoppel affect your theory?

maximumedge, I realize that I will never, ever,ever,ever,ever convince you - that is not my purpose in writing here. aa_memon asked for some information and I have conveyed what I know. Feel free to continue expressing your opinion, but please express what legal theory(ies) your are pursuing so this can become a legal discussion instead of an argument of opinions.

aa_memon, if you still have questions based on maximumedge's last point reread my above analogy about having a Yahoo store. In that same vein, if you have a tripod page, what is your home page? It is not http://tripod.com. It would, of course be http:tripod.com/membername/homepage.html. Now think about what your home page is if you set up an email service through hotmail..... is your home page hotmail.com? No, not for your email page (it would not even exist unless you set it up).

There is nothing, legally (with the exception of contract law - and that is a non-issue here) that would prevent me from linking to MY email homepage from where ever and however I choose to - including via your portal.

[maximumedge]

mfarmerhi, i'd first like to apologize for this misunderstanding. my intentions were not to upset you with my opinions.

however, i'd like you to note that i did use precedence when stating my point of view. in an earlier post, i made reference to the case between microsoft and ticketmaster. the reason i didn't use any further legal theory was because i am not a lawyer, and i wanted my comments to remain as clear as possible without diluting the topic.

i'd like to also add that i never once disagreed with your legal opinion about anything. the only thing i disagreed with you about was the definition of a 'front page' which you yourself admitted was not a legal issue. i apologize for not making myself more clear about this issue, but i'll try to do so now.

whatis.com, which i consider to be a fairly reliable resource, defines a deep link as the following:

A deep link is a hypertext link to a page on a Web site other than its home page.

a home page is also defined at this site:

A home page is the first page presented when a user selects a site or presence on the World Wide Web.

from these definitions, i believe that's it's safe to establish that there can only be one home page per web site. this is one of the reasons why i believe that the area after being logged into hotmail is not the home page (or 'front page') of hotmail. this password-protected area is normally only accessible after proceeding through the front page of hotmail. furthermore, if you bookmarked the page after logging into hotmail and then returned several hours later, you would receive an error message after returning. i think that the home page of a site should be slightly more accessible than this, don't you?

going back to your examples of yahoo and tripod, yes i do agree that there can be more than one home page per domain name, but not more than one per web site. the reason that yahoo has more than one home page is because yahoo is composed of many individual sites (such as finance.yahoo.com, auctions.yahoo.com etc.). the same thing applies to your example of tripod; there are many members with individual web sites hosted on the domain name tripod.com.

i agree with your legal opinion about deep linking, but not your definition of deep linking. i've looked at your opinion with an open mind, and i'd really appreciate it if you did the same to me instead of just trying to 'convince me' of yours. Once again, I apologize for the inconvenience and i look forward to hearing back from you about this.

aa_memon, sorry about this additional confusion i may have caused. also, you may be interested in knowing that google does allow and encourage that type of linking to their site, so you should have no trouble with them whatsoever.

thanks for your time,

Jason Weinstein
webmaster@MaximumEdge.com
http://www.MaximumEdge.com/