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  1. #51
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    Or...you show up some place for a free dinner, but they make you join in saying Grace.

  2. #52
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    so there is no more popups, then what? whatever we "webmasters" then decide to use for content will just then be exploited, isn't that what happened with the popups to begin with?

    oh so now we decide to use flash to display our content, now people say "don't make me install a plugin" to view your site. And then flash plugin becomes expolited somehow, and then people ban flash.

    no wonder most people still like websites done by middle school kids.
    u l t i m a t e
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  3. #53
    SitePoint Addict myrdhrin's Avatar
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    Hum.... Sounds like we're forgetting somebody and something down the road!

    Does a store owner have a store for it's own pleasure or to reach out to people and sell? If the people don't like how high the shelf are and stop coming to the store; will the store owner say: "it's my store, I decide how the products are presented... come to my store anyway" or will he change the height of his shelf to accomodate the people.

    My point is that we "webmasters" are not desining web sites for the companies what purchase them... we're desining the website for the people those companies are trying to reach and if the people they're trying to reach don't want pop-up or _________ (put the name of the feature here) we should not sell that feature to the company in the first place.
    Jean-Marc (aka Myrdhrin)
    M2i3 - blog - Remind-M

  4. #54
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    Not all web sites are stores.

  5. #55
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    so customer has Netscape 4.7 on Win3.1 and can't access your basic design elements (like css), do you create dinosaur.html for those customers to view?

    so we stop using popups, now..we "webmasters" decide to use layers as a method to display our "content"..a layer opens up for the delete confirmation the function my popup used to serve. Now, the designer down the street trying to sell his porn flicks and big pecker pills decides to use layers (a valid technology) to make his sales since popups are blocked.

    Do we now have layer blocking browsers evolve? we lose another valid technology for displaying "content".

    Customers won't pay a membership fee to access a site that provides a decent service, but they will block the banner ads and popups that make the site available to them in the first place. "Your site provides a valuable service"..but they won't pay a minimal fee to support the valuable resource..go figure.
    u l t i m a t e
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  6. #56
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    I don't think you can compare pop-ups to any other form of displaying information (or advertising) because advertising has been around since the beginning and will continue to be there. The very nature of pop-ups is what customers don't like, it's not the content. Even something as useful as sitepoint's newsletter pop-up is a turn off primarily because of the fact that it take the control away from the user. I guess what I am saying is that porn banners and buttons etc, are already here but people don't mind them as much as pop-ups because they are controlable where as pop-ups can be very uncontrollable, it is the nature of the beast to take the focus away from the current window and force the user to see something that maybe the don't want to see.
    Ali Memon
    Direct Print

  7. #57
    SitePoint Addict myrdhrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMichaels
    Not all web sites are stores.
    The point was not to say all web sites are stores... all web sites are there to reach to people


    aa_memon has a point and we face the same problems when desining desktop application. Don't pop a message in the face of the user unless you really have to... it breaks the flow of actions the person can do within an application and limits them to what YOU want them to do
    Jean-Marc (aka Myrdhrin)
    M2i3 - blog - Remind-M

  8. #58
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    because they are controllable where as pop-ups can be very uncontrollable
    the kind of pop-ups we're talking about ARE controlled, the user is clicking a link/image button, this isn't like onLoad/onUnload.

    I think the problem with popups isn't becuase of webmasters using them for content/advertising...I think its due to spyware/adware that attaches to a browser..instead of removing the adware, they block the popups.

    So I WOULD want to get around an ad blocker for cases where I'm using a <a href type javascript call.. the user IS asking for something, whether it have target=_self or _blank...pretty soon _blank will be banned.
    u l t i m a t e
    ..........creative | media

  9. #59
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    Anybody ever watch public television? Those telethons sure seem to go on forever. Far longer than the usual commercials on network TV and radio.

  10. #60
    SitePoint Enthusiast lokee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMichaels
    Do you ever consider giving webmasters what they want?
    what do you mean?

  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMichaels
    Or...you show up some place for a free dinner, but they make you join in saying Grace.
    Then the dinner is not free. You must still perform an action to get it.

    If someone offers to give me a car, if I dig a ditch for them does this mean the car is free? No. I had to did the ditch.

    Popups are over used and worthless. They are non accessablie. The only instance I've seen popups used that is marginally acceptable is: http://photographica.org/

    The company I work for requires all external links to be popups. They are so scared to let people leave the site. They are afriad they won't find their way back.

    You think they could just use the back button.
    "Happiness doesn't find you, you find happiness" -- Unknown
    www.chuckknows.com

  12. #62
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    If popups are "worthless", then why do advertisers pay on average $3 cpm.

  13. #63
    Non-Member Musicbox's Avatar
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    popups are worth only for some content.

  14. #64
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    if you have installed popup blocker then there is no choice unless done good programming by someone
    Build movies website Now - Purchase Zainu

  15. #65
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    I think that the original answer by vgarcia: "If your link is activated onclick or via some other user-initiated action, it should not be blocked by a popup blocker." holds true.

    But in reality, it depends on browser and pop-up blocker program/tool.

    But generally, the statement holds true and I have not had any problems when the action is user-initiated.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMichaels
    If popups are "worthless", then why do advertisers pay on average $3 cpm.
    So what, there is a lot more to value than monetary compensation.
    "Happiness doesn't find you, you find happiness" -- Unknown
    www.chuckknows.com

  17. #67
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckie
    So what, there is a lot more to value than monetary compensation.
    Really? Like something that pays the bills?

  18. #68
    SitePoint Evangelist Unit7285's Avatar
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    Wink

    Pop Up Blockers started as a gimmick ('because we can') to help the kind of people who dredge around in the porn zone all day . People like that are used to the screen filling up with windows (so I hear!). But, let's face it, few people have problems browsing mainstream websites. They never did and they still don't.

    Personally I have never activated a Pop Up Blocker and I can honestly say my normal day-to-day browsing is not impeded by popups or popunders. It's a mystery to me why so many people spend so much time moaning and whining about them.

    'Loss of control?' - Don't make me laugh! Senile dementia, going blind, living in Darfur - *that's* 'loss of control'. If a little window popping up on a computer screen has someone frothing, perhaps they ought to get a life?

    'They waste my time?' - What, a whole half second? What a tragedy!

    I don't believe that real people with real, balanced, normal lives worry about such trivialities.

    A sense of proportion, a sense of perspective would be nice, just occasionally... Instead we get these paranoid, totalitarian-style diktats: Popups Are An Evil Abomination That Everyone Hates. Well they aren't and they don't.

    If adware/spyware is the real problem, then we should deal with that - but to throw the baby out with the bathwater by effectively banning all popups is a ridiculous solution. Too late now though, I guess...

  19. #69
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    $4cpm is pretty average! (so many people have blockers its not worth it)

  20. #70
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    I love the popup which is advertising popup blockers!

  21. #71
    SitePoint Enthusiast Flash_Monster's Avatar
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    It's starting to get real annoying listening to people compare pop-up advertising to stores and such. Get away from the comparisons and such. No ones talking about anything except ONLINE, INTERNET, WEB POPUPS. Has nothing to do with anything else. We don't need metaphors, similies, or comparisons to other types of advertising to understand them. I am personally grateful to the anti-pop-up culture for all the tools out there that block intrusive advertising. What's the real definition of intrusive you might ask ? Being intrusive can be identifie as not being given a choice to see something before we see it, its intrusive.
    Meaning nothing should ever appear on my screen unless I ASK for it to, and not by means of manipulation, but by CLEAR, FULLY UNDERSTANDABLE REQUEST.
    Making a pop-up window appear on my screen, and stating that we have the "option" to close is, IS INTRUSIVE, why ? because I didnt ask for it to pop-up, no instead, it popped up without my consent because I moused over something or loaded a trigger page.
    I find it amusing that so many pro-popup supporters/creators are so furious with the anti-pupup culture for what they are doing to stop pup-ups. But its not the anti-puc fault. The pro-puc ruined it for themselves. By doing things like, making intrusive pop-ups, installing software on peoples computers without them knowing, and forcing people to spend hard earned money to by Utilites in order to clean up their systems that pop-up software has rendered useless. I know people that had to go out and by completely new computers because their systems were completely unusable due to the large amount of onboard pop-up software, spyware, etc.. that it was infested with.
    I think the biggest thing that PRO-PU supporters dont realize is, ...Just cause "your" company only has a few pop-ups on your site, doesnt mean your the only site that HAS pop-ups. When you take a normal day out of the average web-surfer, he/she can encounter hundreds if not thousands of Pop-ups, background installers, spyware progs, etc. etc, in a single day. JUST ONE DAY ! And theres lots of people that have to use their computers everyday, and well calling it a "headache" just doesnt do any justice. As far as the website owners being allowed to advertise anything they want, and we as the viewers can't tell you what to do, your absoultely right. But you just remember your own words when we block pop-ups, cause we as viewers have to right to veiw whatever we want on OUR computers, and NO ONE can tell us what we HAVE TO or DONT HAVE TO see.

  22. #72
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    It's pretty disgusting when freeloaders think they can be so demanding. Pay a subscription, then you can have things more your way.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMichaels
    It's pretty disgusting when freeloaders think they can be so demanding. Pay a subscription, then you can have things more your way.
    I've been as aggressive as anyone in this forum about protecting my banner ad advertising revenue stream on my site, however, I think popups are obnoxious, intrusive and abused to the point of having NO redeeming qualities. Any self-respecting website who has any once of care about their users should not under any circumstances use popup/popunder advertising.

    My feeling is this, I will not accept pop-ups under any circumstances. I'm tired of them crashing my browser and spawning a billion children. If you want to block me from your site, fine I'll go elsewhere. But to compare popup ads to other non-intrusive forms of advertising (e.g. traditional banner ads and Google AdSense) or to call people freeloaders for revolting against popups is obscene.

    Yes popup advertising has a higher CPM than other forms of advertising, but stop to think why it does. It has a high CPM, because respectable sites won't use it and a large percentage of Internet users block them leaving a small supply of popup deliveries for a large number of advertisers who are willing to use scorched earth practices to peddle their wares.

    If you want to use popups on your sites, fine. If you really feel that strongly about popups and don't want users to access your sites if they are blocking your popups that is your purgative; however, don't look for sleazy tactics to circumvent popup blockers. Instead, simply redirect users of popup blockers to a different page that explains they can't access your content unless they allow your popups or buy a subscription to your site. This will give them a fair opportunity to leave your site unmolested.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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  24. #74
    Non-Member DaveMichaels's Avatar
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    Displaying a page still uses CPU, memory, bandwidth. I've seen "respectable" sites (like Yahoo) use ads that are more annoying than popups - like eyeblasters (invues).

    Compared to the instrusiveness of a lot of other ads in other mediums, I find popups really pretty minor. One reason why I find the anti-popup zealots so silly.

  25. #75
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Yes delivering and producing webpages costs money and resources, hence I block users who block my banner ads, however, the issue of popups is not silly.

    I've been surfing the web for over ten years and developing web sites for over nine years. I have never seen any form of advertising cause as many technical problems for the end user than popups. I've had popups crash a computer or web browser more times than I can count and I've seen users caught in an endless sea of popups after making an accidental wrong turn on the Internet. In moderation, popups probably wouldn't be an issue, however, way too many sites don't understand the concept of moderation AND the fact that the failure to use popups in moderation will frequently cause a web browser or computer to crash is unacceptable. Furthermore, the fact that so many sites try to create popups that look like system alerts that are geared to tricking the user into doing something they wouldn't otherwise do makes popups even less acceptable.

    Yes I make a living off of the Internet, and yes I have heavy hosting fees to pay to delivery my site and yes I have to buy content to my website. I do not, however, need popups to generate revenue. Appropriately used traditional banner ads and Google AdSense ads, can generate a very respectable return on investment even if it isn't as great as with popup ads.

    When I see people *****ing about popup blockers and trying to find ways to circumvent them, I see people who are simply being greedy and trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. Yes website may need to lay down some limits to protect revenue streams. If, however, websites respect their users their users will appreciate it, and this appreciation can be more valuable to the long run success of a site that the few extra bucks circumventing popup blockers will provide.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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