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View Poll Results: Should McVeigh's Execution Be Broadcast?

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  • No execution should be broadcast.

    41 66.13%
  • Yes - all execution's should.

    13 20.97%
  • Yes, but only in his case.

    8 12.90%
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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    It's been six years since the Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people including 20 children in a day care center. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/2001...bing_dc_5.html

    There has been a bit of controversy in the US regarding broadcasting his execution. A Web company has even sued for the right to Webcast it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1285981.stm

    Personally, I am against the death penalty, but this case makes me want to rethink that position.
    Last edited by westmich; Apr 19, 2001 at 18:02.
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  2. #2
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I don't care to watch it - but if someone wants to I think they should be allowed the opportunity - the families of the victims will get to see it on closed circuit television already anyways.

    As for the death penalty - I don't think its enough. This case makes me wish torture was legal.
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  3. #3
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    Personally I feel like the death penalty is the "easy way out", but then again so is prison these days, they get cable and internet access. What the hell is that about anyways, I can barely afford cable and internet access as it is now and I work for a living.

    Personally, I feel like Timothy MvVeigh should rot in a 4 x 4 cell in the middle of Death VAlley for the rest of his life. Or turned over to general population in the prison, see how long is sweet little **** lasts.

    We need to rethink the way we handle prisoners these days, why should they have any rights when most of them are in prison for robbing us of our rights.
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  4. #4
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    I am in two minds...

    one side of me feels that broadcasting the event will help bring closure to those affected by the bombing. It may help people see that a: justice prevails, and b: that this is the end of the chapter.

    The other side of me thinks differently. We should really - as good humanitarian citizens - allow McVeigh the dignity that he took from others, to prove our forgiveness.

    That said, we choose to kill him in response to his crime... so we have neglected to turn the other cheek and forgive.. (anyway, that's enough of that side of it)

    The real horror - as far as i am concerned - is that this was going to be a PPV event - which is a little ridiculous. Perhaps is this was broadcasted like the news, then that'd be ok, but to PPV - that's just not right.

    Of course, execution has always been a popular spectator sport.. just think back to Victorian England...

    James

  5. #5
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    I don't think any of the options on that poll apply to me...

    Regardless of the fact that a death penalty is inhumane, I think that there's nothing wrong with broadcasting it.

    I don't think that is SHOULD be broadcast, but I don't see anything wrong with someone doing it if they want.

    [mmj is thankful he lives in a country without any death penalty]
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  6. #6
    Nice Mug jer's Avatar
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    For someone like him, the Death Penalty is definitly the easy way out. He has no respect whatsoever for life, and it was his own request that he be put to death at the earliest possible time. What he did was horrible, atrocious and to me, almost unfathomable.

    However, I'm still firmly against the death penalty, because I don't think for any reason we have the right to say who lives or dies. I know the arguements for it, and I know that 90% of people won't be changing their stance on the death penalty anytime soon, I just wanted to share my 2 cents and I hope this doesn't turn into a huge debate

    As for it being broadcast... that has such a HUGE effect on my emotions -- to watch another human, being put to death -- actually dying (being killed) in front of my eyes... it's so horrible and unthinkable. I don't know who could possibly want to watch that, to me it's just sick.

    I understand the feelings of the families who lost loved ones to him, and I don't judge or condemn them -- for them maybe watching his death will actually be their only way to live the rest of their lives. However, for someone to profit from this? For people to pay their cable companies or whatever to see this? It's so disgusting it makes me feel like retching! How could anyone have so little respect for a human life?

    Just my 2 cents, I feel very strongly about this.. and about anything that deals with human lives.

  7. #7
    Skills to Pay the Bills Sparkie's Avatar
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    I think his execution should be broadcast. Look at all the innocent lives he shattered. He doesn't deserve a shred of dignity or forgiveness from anyone, especially not the families who suffered because of his act. If you have seen some portions of the letters he has written and the things he's said, its very clear that this man wants to die and doesn't care about the human lives he has destroyed. Let him have his wish.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard edshuck's Avatar
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    I am generally opposed to capital punishment. I do believe that if we are to execute people, we must be made to understand that it is US and not a faceless lady called justice.

    I agree with the sentence. I would watch. And I would feel very sad, not for him. But for what he called "Collateral Losses".

    I believe that if we are required to participate, that injustice done in our name will also diminish.

  9. #9
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Those who consent to imposing their laws above divine law should take the opportunity to watch their laws ennacted and contemplate their own damnation in the eyes of God. For they are equally as damned as the perpetrator of sins against them.

    Those who consent to manslaughter as justice cannot condemn others who kill. If you consent to the killing of others as justice, then is it not right that I should kill you to protect myself from your laws?

    Although I usually have little interest in jurisprudence, I do hold highly the thoughs of Sir Thomas More, who is one of the greatest jurors of our system of justice.
    But if one shall say, that by that law we are only forbid to kill any except when the laws of the land allow of it, upon the same grounds, laws may be made, in some cases, to allow of adultery and perjury: for God having taken from us the right of disposing either of our own or of other people's lives, if it is pretended that the mutual consent of men in making laws can authorise man-slaughter in cases in which God has given us no example, that it frees people from the obligation of the divine law, and so makes murder a lawful action, what is this, but to give a preference to human laws before the divine? and, if this is once admitted, by the same rule men may, in all other things, put what restrictions they please upon the laws of God.
    Thomas More, Utopia.
    Last edited by freakysid; Apr 19, 2001 at 23:25.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Enthusiast sparq-l's Avatar
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    Not only is the death penalty "the easy way out" but it has been proven to cost taxpayers MORE than keeping the guilty party in prison. This is due to the legal fees of appeals you and I have to pay for the prisoner.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Enthusiast norfett's Avatar
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    We had this discussion (about death penalty) in English class when I was @ school.

    My view on it now is, well what right have we to kill him? He killed so that makes it OK to kill him, and do the same thing?

    No, we have no right to do that, that is being just as bad as he is. Prison is the best option, as that will make him suffer, forget the comforts he has, he'll have to LIVE with what he's done, which he wont want to do.

    And, No, It shouldnt be broadcast, cos that is just sick, and even sicker to have it PPV and to make money out of someones death.

    My 2 pennys anyhoos.

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  12. #12
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    Hmm, for what it's worth, I'm all in favour of the death penalty. Perhaps those who are in favour of letting people live in good conditions in prisons would be happy to pay my share of the taxes that goes towards it. I've got no objections to paying for protection and imprisonment (indeed, my dissertation this year was devoted to arguing this very point), but at the moment it's inefficient and not enough of a punishment.

    Not only is the death penalty "the easy way out" but it has been proven to cost taxpayers MORE than keeping the guilty party in prison. This is due to the legal fees of appeals you and I have to pay for the prisoner.
    This is more of a flaw in the system than the principle.

    As for broadcasting his death, yeah, why not? If you don't want to watch it you don't have to. It's a free world - as long as you live within the boundaries that society has set.

    Who said "Only with law can you be truly free"? Isiaih Berlin?
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Enthusiast norfett's Avatar
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    Originally posted by OllieO
    Hmm, for what it's worth, I'm all in favour of the death penalty. Perhaps those who are in favour of letting people live in good conditions in prisons would be happy to pay my share of the taxes that goes towards it. I've got no objections to paying for protection and imprisonment (indeed, my dissertation this year was devoted to arguing this very point), but at the moment it's inefficient and not enough of a punishment.
    So, as your in favour of it, what happens if say bloke found guilty, is then killed, and 15 years down the line its found that he was not guilty of the crime after all? "oh sorry, we thought he was guilty then" what do you say to his/her family eh?

    another reason why the death penalty is a crap idea. You can free someone from prison, but you can't bring them back from the dead.

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  14. #14
    SitePoint Enthusiast Chris H's Avatar
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    Should it be broadcast? Definitely not.

    I'm not particularly bothered about whether we do or don't have the death penalty.

    What I have concerns about is the affect a broadcast would have on some innocent parties in such cases - namely the relatives of the perpetrators. They probably still love him, regardless of what he did. Imagine your own son, brother, father, mother's execution being prime time entertainment. Too gutting to contemplate. There's been too much suffering already. Let's have justice by all means but let's also have compassion for those who are hurting.
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  15. #15
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by OllieO
    ...not enough of a punishment.

    ...It's a free world - as long as you live within the boundaries that society has set.
    -Whose society?

    Hi there.

    The problem I see with that is that society is an unknown quantity. Society is chaotic in its nature, and is not definitive.

    Society is an all-encompassing body.

    If you impose upon somebody a law which you believe to be accepted by a hypothetical uniform society, then you are making your own judgement about that person. When this decision involves life, the decision is final and cannot be reversed by further proceedings or approved by society.

    Society is mostly good. It keeps order by enforcing a set of rules based on a low common denominator. A greater number of decisions made will be approved by a greater number of people.

    However the 'boundaries' that are set by 'society' refer to a great number of different boundaries in different times, places and situations. There is no way of making a decision and knowing that all of society will always approve of it.

    Therefore you cannot decide to kill someone for breaking a hypothetical society's boundary, as these boundaries have been set up by a particular subset in a particular situation.


    Sorry all. I know what I have to say, and have been unable to work out how to say it clearly. I have tried to express why, but I failed.
    Last edited by mmj; Apr 20, 2001 at 02:40.
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  16. #16
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    He should not be executed outright, but stoned to death by the victims' families and anyone else who wants to get in on it. Or maybe stick him in a 6x6 cell with a 7-foot tall, hungry grizzly. He killed a helluva lot of people, and therefore should not receive a quick, painless death. I'm all for torture in this case. Anyway, regarding the OP, since the death penalty is the law, it should be the right of the citizens to witness that law in action.

    imajes, you said something about forgiving him. Only the victims can forgive him. To say that society at large can forgive him is purely absurd. That would be like someone shooting you in the leg, and me, a total stranger, forgiving the shooter for you. It's disrespectful to you, the victim.

  17. #17
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    Originally posted by OneChance
    Anyway, regarding the OP, since the death penalty is the law, it should be the right of the citizens to witness that law in action.
    I'm all against people being able to pay to watch someone die on their TV screens.

    Are we back to the gladiators era ? When Caesar put a thumb down and they executed the losing gladiator in front of an arena of blood-hungry people.

    This is something that makes me lose all respect for those who will pay to watch the execution.
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  18. #18
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Those who consent to imposing their laws above divine law should take the opportunity to watch their laws ennacted and contemplate their own damnation in the eyes of God. For they are equally as damned as the perpetrator of sins against them.
    Watch what you believe in. The church has killed people who don't believe in their god. So its hypocritical to say what modern people should or should not do based on old literature that says do not kill because when that was written killing was exactly what they did.
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    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    So, as your in favour of it, what happens if say bloke found guilty, is then killed, and 15 years down the line its found that he was not guilty of the crime after all? "oh sorry, we thought he was guilty then" what do you say to his/her family eh?
    Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people - he admits it now.

    Lets say Hitler wasn't killed. Lets say we captured him. Hitler ordered the deaths of over 6 million people. Do we kill him?

    At which point do you say "this man deserves to die" how many lives do you have to take to reach that point?

    Many people are prepared to die for their cause. They wont care if they set off a bomb that kills 1000's and they are caught because all they face is a lethal injection.

    And that scares me.
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  20. #20
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    On his prison

    Timothy McVeigh has been staying in the federal supermax facility somewhere in colorado.

    In this prison all prisoners are in solitary with no amenities except books and whatnot in their rooms. They are never left out of their cell except for 1 time a day. They are escorted by two guards to a cement enclosed area that is open to the sky. Its about 10' x 10' and has a basketball hoop. They get like 30 min or 45 min or something then are escorted back to their cell. Between their cell and the "yard" they are always in handcuffs.

    I watched a whole discovery channel special on this place.

    So anyways they don't have cable or anything like that. However I still dont think life in prison would be enough. Maybe if he was in a cell where he could never stretch out - that'd be good.
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  21. #21
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    I find advocating torture to be completely barbaric and repulsive. OK there have been heated debates here before, but this talk is so barbaric it is sickening. Please, if it humours your savage baseness, tell me how might you execute such a descent into depravity. What would be the most effective way of satisfying your blood lust which you pass off for justice. Would you have force this fellow to run into a wall head first bashing himself to death ala Idi Amin in Uganda? Would you prefer to perform acts of sexual depravity upon him while torturing him to death as occured more recently in Yugoslavia? Should he be chained to a pickup truck and dragged several kilometers down the road?

    Please inform us so we can all bask in the depravity of your mind and gain an understanding of what justice means.

  22. #22
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    I was not talking of Divine law and the eyes of God specifically or literally. I actually don't believe in God in the straight biblical sense. I don't believe that Gods hand actually descended from heaven and inscribed upon the stone tablet the ten commandments high upon Mt Sinai. Yet I still believe in the law of the ten commandments as written in the old testament and which forms the moral core or our shared western culture, civilisation and law.

    What I believe Thomas More was argueing was that there must be a point, a basis, an irrefutable basis at which the law is so fundamental as to not require any arguement or interpretation. Such lore forms the moral core upon which civilisation is based and upon which all other social mores, conventions and regulations can grow from. This is the purpose of the ten commandments. More's arguement is valid. If you say that the law is not to kill, but you make exceptions and make killing legal that you subvert the moral foundation of your law.

    I say that those who kill in the name of justice stand condemned in the eyes of God. If you can make judgement of when it is just to kill then you stand condemned to the judgements of other mens judgement of when it is just to kill. And when is it just to kill a man. When he has murdered six million Jews? When he has killed 168 people? When he has raped your wife or your sister? When he has assulted you? When he opens a shop in competition to your business? When he cuts you off in the traffic?

    Am I being trivial? No I'm asking you for your exact law which states when is it just to kill a man?

    So this is what I mean by divine law. This, I believe, is what Thomas More also meant by divine law as it is relevent to law in society. It is ironic aspen that I ended up finding the online manuscript of Utopia at your web site.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    woof...good thread!

    [reaches into pocket for $.02]

    There are too many points here that I could agree or disagree with, so I will post my own thoughts.

    I personally agree with the death penalty. I think that keeping a person in prison wastes taxpayer dollars. For those of you woul would argue about the appeals process, I also have my opinions about that, however in the interest of self-preservation, I won't post them here...

    On average, it costs taxpayers $40,000/year PER prisoner (or so I have heard). Many of these prisoners have luxuries that most middle-class citizens can't even afford.
    - Cable TV
    - Satellite TV
    - Large Screen TV's
    - The ability to take College classes and leave prison with a degree (FOR FREE)

    I could go on, but I would like to point everyone to the Arizona (I think) corrections facility. There is a warden who feels that Prisoners should not be treated equal to free citizens. He feels that prison should be a punishment for their crimes (GASP...what a concept).

    He gives the prisoners chances to exercise, read, socialize. However, he took away their Cable and gave them plain old local channels. He took away their gourmet food and feeds them healthy normal food.

    I totally agree with this philosophy. How many times have you heard someone joke about getting sent to prison "I should just go to jail. I would get TV, 3 square meals a day..." It's an embarassment to me personally.

    Now, back to the thread at hand...
    Now, while I said that I agree with the death penalty, I don't think that his death should be televised. Public executions can be a deterrent (reference the middle ages), but I think this particular one would just be a cash cow for that company who sued to get the rights.

    Let me digress here for a minute about THAT situation. Sometimes I am embarassed to be an American, especially when I hear stories like that one. Can you believe that someone thinks they have the right to SUE the government so that they can televise an execution???????? Just that notion makes me sick. Where do they get off thinking that they have the right to sue?

    Anyway...to address one point I think someone said. Timothy McVeigh has admitted that he planted the explosives, thereby killing all those people. He has also said that he does not want an appeal. He further has said that he wants to be executed. In my mind...let him get his wish.
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    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Yuck.

    Let's say if you wanted to kill somebody, or torture them, as revenge for what they have done.

    In this sort of discussion you have to throw around a lot of reasons, and questions about ourselves. Is it ok to lock someone up? No. But the justice system does it and most of us accept it when they do it. It is debatable whether this is for the good of the society as a whole or for reasons such as revenge, hatred, sadism, etc. But for the prison system not too many people complain, because much of the time it can be shown that it is being done for the good of society as a whole.

    Now remember in any punishment, it is an individual, or a group of people, that decide to administer the punishment. No punishment is automatically accepted by society.

    If you take it upon yourself to do more than what is necessary to protect the society as a whole, and actually administer corporal punishment, then there is little debate that it is being done for other reasons, such as revenge, hatred, pleasure etc. This then fails to be justified by society. It's a disgusting way to behave, and even if your decision is backed by many people around the world, it still is an ugly violation of human rights. If it is wrong to hurt someone, surely it is wrong to hurt someone no matter what the circumstances.

    If you go a step further into a death sentence, then this is progressively worse, and basically you are killing someboy for your own personal pleasure. Is this wrong? Surely if it is so wrong to kill people, it is so wrong to kill people.

    Now you see why the idea of torture as a fair punishment is laughable? With a death penalty, you are killing someone for nothing but pleasure, hatred, revenge. For torture, it is the same, but worse. You obviously have a deep sadistic urge to administer the most pain and misery that you can.

    I am, again, thankful that I live in a country civilised enough not to administer the death penalty.
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  25. #25
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I don't think any execution should be broadcast, no matter what case. I think the families need to move on from this horrible incident and this will only bring back more sad memories of their deceased loved ones.

    I just don't think executions should be turned into entertainment.


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