frames vs No frames!!

[NoAngels]

hi, group!

i want to know all your opinions! would you like to visit a page with frames or not? all opinions would be helpful!

cheers!

[mmj]

This topic often seems to be raised.

Here's one link:
http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=20619

Here's another
http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=21083

Generally, I tend to go by "If what you want to do in frames can be done in tables, use the tables."

Hope this helps.

[Saz]

At the end of the day, I think it's down to the designer - or the client if the site is being built for somebody else.

I've seen some terrific sites that have used frames. I've seen some terrible sites in frames that I've steered clear of since. But I've also seen good and bad sites that use tables.

I think if the designer is good enough, they can pull off a good site regardless of whether they use frames or not!

[aspen]

never say never

but you can say hardly ever.

[creole]

mmj...

you keep saying that tables can be used to replace the effects that frames can provide.

The main reason people would want to use frames is so that some element of their page (usually the navigation) stays fixed while other parts of the page can be scrolled. Obviously you cannot achieve that effect with tables.

I was just curious why you mention that everytime. Not trying to be obnoxious or anything...just curious.

[Skunk]

My biggest problem with frames is that when you are on a framed site you do not have access to the URL of the page you are on. This means you can't bookmark pages, and you can't send a link to a friend (not without right clicking on a page, selecting properties and copying the URL out of that which is just plain irritating).

As far as I'm concerned the web's principle navigation model is that of individual pages linked together - you go from one page to another, hit back / forward / shift click to opn in a new window / bookmark stuff / copy links - using frames confuses things horribly as instead of viewing one page of HTML at a time you are effectively viewing 2 or more.

[SLeon]

I agree with Skunk about the annoyance of trying to bookmark a framed page.

Generally, I use frames as a last resort--for example, when building a company intranet that must run off of an internal server that has no web services, so I couldn't use SSI for repeatable elements like the navigation bars.

Tables, I think, tend to be a little more difficult to massively mess up than frames. I *hate* being on a site that uses frames where they haven't at all considered about the scrollbars. And generally frames feel really restrictive.

For repeatable elements like navigation, I would use SSI combined with a table or DHTML, or Flash or something. There are lots of ways to handle it without frames.

[paroxysm]

I like tables when it comes to the placement of sliced-up images. I have no clue as how to use a HTML Editor so tables can be a real lifesaver.

I use frames whenever I get lazy. Also frames also help to reduce the loading time. Or at least that's how I feel.

[mmj]

Originally posted by creole

you keep saying that tables can be used to replace the effects that frames can provide.

No, I'm not really saying that. From a design point of view, sometimes frames are mistakenly used where, with a slight consideration, tables would have done as good a job. In these cases and only in these cases, should the frames be replaced by tables.

Tables can't replace the effects that frames can provide, but sometimes a novice webmaster is trying to be too ambitious and using a frames based site when they are not entirely necessary.

I cannot provide an example right now, but I remember a few years ago when frames were new that almost every new company had navigation links or a logo in a separate frame.

I hope I've explained myself better.

I suppose it's a lot like the flash debate - often it is overused and unnecessary, but it can also be beneficial.

[Drinky]

Originally posted by Skunk
My biggest problem with frames is that when you are on a framed site you do not have access to the URL of the page you are on. This means you can't bookmark pages, and you can't send a link to a friend (not without right clicking on a page, selecting properties and copying the URL out of that which is just plain irritating).

Check out the code library on MSDN, this is the only site i've seen that has ever correctly implemented frames. Notice the get page URL button which gives you a url which will rebuild exactly what you see on the screen the next time you use it.

[lynlimz]

Yes. Microsoft CodeLibrary is impressive.
I never leave frames out as an option. For example, I just used frames for my documentation of a open-source application.

While frames might not be suitable for your current project, leave it as an option as there will be a time when its useful