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  1. #1
    Grumpy Mole Man Skunk's Avatar
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    Please don't shift this to the CSS forum as I'm sure it's content is more applicable to general web design than specifically CSS (plus I get the feeling that forum doesn't get nearly as much traffic as this one )

    OK - I just read the excellent new article on SitePoint about encouraging users to use standards compliant browsers, and how it lets you do funky designs with not a table in sight. Check it out here if you haven't read it already:

    http://www.webmasterbase.com/article.php/379

    I found this a fantastic article, and will almost certainly be using it's principles in my next site. Here's the problem though. I use MSIE 5.5 on a PII laptop. I generally surf the net with at least 12 MSIE windows open, constantly downloading new pages while I'm reading ones that have loaded (works great for using forums). I find that IE tends to lock up and crash if I have more than 20 open windows at once.

    While browsing the example sites linked to from the article above, my IE started to lock up with only 8 windows open. Now this could be because my laptop has been on for a while and is running out of resources, but it was still quite alarming how few windows I could have open. Does using CSS for layout instead of tables somehow hog more system resources when used in conjunction with MSIE?

    If so this could be a problem with the kind of sites I work on (which will generally be visited by people who are experienced in using the internet and likely to have many browser windows open).

    Can anyone comment on this, or possibly try opening several sites using CSS only in their browser and see if the same happens to them?

    Excellent article by the way - I'd love to see other people's opinions on it and whether or not they would use the techniques described for their own sites.

  2. #2
    Procrastinator Extraordinaire lucas's Avatar
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    i can't answer your question about the CSS, but i suggest you consider a copy of windows 2000 professional edition, IE and everything else runs a lot more stable than in 98.

  3. #3
    Grumpy Mole Man Skunk's Avatar
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    That's fine for me - but what about my site users who don't have win2k etc?

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    I miss the good old days with plain simple easy to understand and use HTML. Is it just me or is this whole CSS and iLayer trend making everything so much more complicated than it was just two or three years ago?

    First they started changing the color of our links and the size of our text, which was cute and handy, but now they want to take over our beloved tables! Oh no, not the tables, everyone uses tables these days! I hate them so much that I love them!

    I don't know if CSS will replace tables any day soon because tables just seem so much easier to get working properly. And right now I find tables do a much better job at keeping your page looking good than CSS.

  5. #5
    Procrastinator Extraordinaire lucas's Avatar
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    That's fine for me - but what about my site users who don't have win2k etc?
    they should get windows 2000 too. seriously, people that use windows 98 are used to things crashing. as a web designer, i have to consider browser compatibility and download speed, along with a million other small things. however, i'm not going to concern myself with a POS operating system that can not manage memory effectively so it crashes all the time.

    just my .02 cents

  6. #6
    Procrastinator Extraordinaire lucas's Avatar
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    I miss the good old days with plain simple easy to understand and use HTML. Is it just me or is this whole CSS and iLayer trend making everything so much more complicated than it was just two or three years ago?
    i think the whole idea of CSS is to make things more simple. its not any harder than html to learn (its a lot easier actually) and it does sitewide changes.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot JagXJ220's Avatar
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    I don't plan to switch back over to CSS anytime soon. I used to use CSS for every one of my sites, but since then I've switched over to using tables, which make things much easier and allow for much greater flexibility. I couldn't imagine switching back over to CSS, after all the trouble that it caused me.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    I don't believe CSS is any way responsible for locking up your computer. I would say it has more to do with hardware/software/OS.

    As far as CSS vs. tables, CSS wins every time for several reasons.
    • It separates design from content from programming.
    • Provides a single point of design for an entire Web site.
    • Ability to provide alternate design for monitors, print, TV, and other Web devices like cell phones without changing or creating mirror sites.
    • Ability to precisely control individual elements independently of one another.

    IMHO, developers having problems with CSS can be attributed to two factors: 1) Browsers interpret CSS standards differently. This can be solved by following the article mentioned above. 2) A lack of understanding on the part of the developer. There seems to be a myth that CSS is extremely simple. That's true in part, but style sheets can become complex and a developer should have a good source of reference when using CSS.
    Westmich
    Smart Web Solutions for Smart Clients
    http://www.mindscapecreative.com

  9. #9
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    Here's my 2p

    I have been messing around with table-less layouts using <div> and CSS and it makes coming back to edit a html doc loads easier. Everything is structured nice and easy ie.

    for three column, the (very) basic layout of your doc is

    <html>
    <body>

    <div>col one stuff</div>

    <div>col two stuff</div>

    <div>col three stuff</div>

    </body>
    </html>

    so if you want to change something in column three you know exactly where to start, no counting through table rows and table columns etc. A lot more logical.

    xHTML and xml are coming like it or not, and using tables for layout just won't cut the mustard. If you have spotted some of my other posts around sitepoint you will know I am a big advocate of standards, I do tend to rant on about this tables thing though

    Sorry

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Buggr, Bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger.

    Didn't know that this was possible, am truly inspired, am going to have to hold you, SKUNK, entirely responsible for all the forthcoming sleepless nights getting up to speed.

    H

    (ps: still looking for my avatar, anyone seen it? )
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
    922ee590a26bd62eb9b33cf2877a00df
    Currently delving into Django, GIT & CentOS

  11. #11
    Anyone seen my cypher? OneChance's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lucas
    seriously, people that use windows 98 are used to things crashing.
    That's a pretty generalized statement. I use Windows 98 and can't remember the last time it crashed. Of course, I'm not in the habit of installing hundreds of programs just to fill up my hard drive. I have only what I need on this computer, and maybe I've gotten lucky that everything works great together. I've had dozens of IE 5.5 windows open at one time and never had problems.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard dominique's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    (ps: still looking for my avatar, anyone seen it? )
    They probably removed because it was driving everyone crazy, sorry.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    You can be honest

    hmmm - at last someone answers my desperate cries

    Yes, I know it was a simple bevelled square with an off centre spinning "h" but...well...it was me

    I don't mind being told I'm ugly, in fact I knew it - but to creep up in the middle of the night and snatch my face, without so much as a warning - now that's just straight out of "The Chrysalids".

    Dr FrankenH will return with an avatar who's beauty shall blind all that cast eyes upon itfnaahaaar, fnaggfsr, eeerfghf.

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
    922ee590a26bd62eb9b33cf2877a00df
    Currently delving into Django, GIT & CentOS

  14. #14
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    OK I had 5 minutes to kill so I decided to get some numbers.

    Windows 2000 IE 5.5. To be fair I started a new IE session for each test. The amounts listed are how much RAM was in use for IEXPLORE.EXE once CPU usage leveled off at 0

    21,716K 9 random links from Lycos.com
    23,656K 9 random links off of sitepoint.com's index
    120,388K 9 random listings from ebay.com

    pretty heavy use of tables on those pages. Then I tried some of the example pages listed in the article.

    16,104K http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/ x4 and 1 instance of each link on the page
    17,012K 9 random links off of webstandards.com's index

    Not a huge difference (except for ebay...ouch) Sorry if I bored anyone hehe


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