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View Poll Results: What do you prefer to design/concentrate more for?

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  • Internet Explorer

    65 91.55%
  • Netscape Navigator

    4 5.63%
  • Opera

    1 1.41%
  • other..

    1 1.41%
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  1. #1
    SitePoint Enthusiast pman's Avatar
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    well, I guess this might be a follow up to the thread from earlier...but its a little different


    how many of you web designers preffer I.E. or N.N?
    Great...more browsers to worry about

    when you design your pages...which (browser) do you mostly concentrate on developing the best all around turn out for?
    i.e. "I want it to look the best in IE even if it's a little screwed in N.N."

    well, I personally loved (notice the past tense) N.N. and hated I.E. till I.E. 4.0 came out. Then, I switched to I.E. for good. The only reason I have N.N. on my computer is so I can see how bad my pages look in N.N. as compared to other browsers.


    In my oppinion I.E. has the best support for CSS.
    in persuit of world domination...uhh..for the better!

  2. #2
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    I have come to realize that making web sites look good in NN really isn't that hard. <gasp>

    1. Keep your code clean and strict. Don't make sloppy code.
    Even if you don't do it for netscape, it will pay off when XHTML starts being standardized - it's code checking is super-strict.

    2. Stick to web standards. Don't use anything that isn't in the W3C standards. NetScape is following those much better than IE does.

    3. IMHO, it's downright stupid to ignore 12% of your visitors! If you pages don't work in netscape, it's due to you doing wrong, not Netscape! Netscape is following the W3C web standards, IE is not. The problem is that you are following IE, not the web standards, like you should. If your web pages doesn't work in anything other than IE, visual and hearing imapied are screwed - your web site will break.

    Make your code clean and standardized, and make it a habit. Wrrrooom - you instantly boost your traffic with 12%!

    Oh, and regardless what people thinks, netscape is a pretty impressive browser. Once it is started up (whoa - that takes a loooong time) it's very fast and nice to use. I don't think it's impossible that AOL will use it as it's browser... Not yet, it's still a bit too buggy, but in a few versions, it's likely.

    By the way, use CSS1 instead of tables - it's much easier to do, (haha, no more <td><tr></td></tr>-hell) once you get the hang of it. Also, it works fine in all browsers!
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  3. #3
    SitePoint Enthusiast pman's Avatar
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    my problems with netscape come with tables and css.

    to tell you the truth, I don't follow the WC3 standards. I didn't learn html using these standards. HTML and CSS just grew on me, I suppose...since there isn't much to learn anyway.


    I still say that IE is better as from experience over the web..especially with multimedia sites...IE handles the pages in a smoother way. It's faster/cleaner (it feels like it anyway) as it is built into the win OS. Yes, I've heard that IE doesn't follow the web standards sometime before. But, all that doesn't matter. If IE is putting out a better product...they should change the standards to IE.

    NN did improve the CSS support.

    It's nerve wrecking if you're trying to clean up a site that has too much content.
    in persuit of world domination...uhh..for the better!

  4. #4
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Of course you didn't learn by the web standards - since you had IE already installed on the system, and thus made your first sites for it, didn't you? You are "born" with IE, so to speak.

    I will now show two images with summarizes this, and shows why the browser war is hell for desginers:

    Site in Netscape6:


    Same site in Explorer5.5:


    Notice the small, small difference on the submit button? On netscape, the button is one pixel wrong downwards, and on explorer it is one pixel wrong upwards. It's not much, but incredibly annoying, at least for me. If you adjust the pixel so that explorer is correct, netscape breaks, and vice versa. There is no way in hell that this can be solved - except to make separate pages for each browser! There are even more similiar problems. Like JScript and JavaScript - downright stupid. They should scrap and destroy both of these and support the OFFICIAL, STANDARDIZED version of javascript - ECMAscript.

    Anyway - in the above situation, the designer is likely to make it work for the browser he is using, which is IE, since it comes pre-installed in windows.

    I'm still evaluating my opinions on this. I guess I will make my websites work as good as possible for both NN and IE IE is priority of course, but NN is important too.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Am I the only person who loves the speed and compliance of the Mozilla nightlies? I personally use IE for browsing but I prefer to design for later versions of netscape.

    I guess it doesn't matter for me though because I adhere to HTML 2 (or 3.2 if I'm feeling wild), and both support _that_ perfectly.

    I hope I see more votes for Nestscape! I don't wanna be all alone...

  6. #6
    Bimbo With A Brain! silver trophy Saz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by pman
    Yes, I've heard that IE doesn't follow the web standards sometime before. But, all that doesn't matter. If IE is putting out a better product...they should change the standards to IE.
    I totally agree! If standards aren't raised to keep up with progress, then it's not going to be long before the 'web' is seen as behind the times instead of a sign of things to come!

    Although I do try to make my sites look good in both IE and NN (having probs with a site I'm in the middle of........but as it's only a hobby site and isn't dependant on good 'traffic results', I'm not too worried about it), I will admit that I have a bias towards IE. Mainly because that's what I use most of the time, and also because for some reason there's something on my system that conflicts with NN and causes all sorts of errors!! My husband has NN on his laptop though, as well as IE, so I check my sites on there to make sure they're viewable in both browsers.
    Saz: Naturally Blonde, Naturally Dizzy!
    No longer Editor of the Community Crier.

    Don't mind me, I'm having a BLONDE moment!

  7. #7
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    crap.
    lol....i just hope they will have a ie5.5.1 where they move the standards up =) i'll stay away form ie6.

    could you include mozilla please? =)
    my vote goes to mozilla.

    excellent work so far.
    micrsooft's screwing up the browser war by releasing ie6...at least for now..*theres still hope...* ahah

    back to the question..i deisgn for both ie and nn. i also include mozilla and opera on my list.

    for best support on CSS, its mozilla, or opera, or ie5 mac. definitely not win ie5.5.

    all those extra stuffs they added..( like styling your scrollbar... )..are unnecessary.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I can't truthfully vote on this poll's thread because I try to design or have my designs concentrate on working in *both* browsers.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I don't design for browsers, I design for consumers.

    H
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  10. #10
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    I don't design for browsers, I design for consumers.

    H
    now that sums it all.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein

  11. #11
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Truelight you crack me up! Honestly worrying about 1 pixel this way or that way Its not rocket science, no one's life depends on your css!

    Personally, I think that you should design with the strengths and weaknesses of html as a media in mind just as a sculptor would treat different types of stone. Designing for the web is not the same as laying out for print publishing. It's not pixel perfect and it won't look the same on every client and that's just the way it is.

    BTW, you have bigger problems with how your site is showing in both IE and Mozilla on Mac. Message me with your email address and I'll send you some screen shots if you wish.

    cheers

  12. #12
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    I don't design for browsers, I design for consumers.
    Now that is a wonderful quote. I'll steal it and use it in all browser discussions.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
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  13. #13
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    BTW, you have bigger problems with how your site is showing in both IE and Mozilla on Mac. Message me with your email address and I'll send you some screen shots if you wish.
    Oh, bajeezuus, Sid - my site is not nearly finished - and even far form cross-browser compatible! I'm doing a heavy redesign now on a local copy. I've have had problems with getting it working on macs though - it's very hard for me to test, since I don't know anyone who owns a Mac! Dang! Thanks for the offer, though! I'll hold you to that - I'll contact you as soon as the site is working somewhat.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  14. #14
    SitePoint Enthusiast pman's Avatar
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    I don't design for browsers, I design for consumers.

    what do your consumers use?
    in persuit of world domination...uhh..for the better!

  15. #15
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    I design for all browsers.

    And Internet Explorer does follow W3C rules + it adds stuff like iFrames, and yes maybe it displays sloppy code but that is a plus not a min.

    Netscape can't even display nested tables right, and if I'm right (I am) nesting table is something that IS supported by W3C.

    I browse in Internet Explorer because it's the best, but I design for all browsers.

  16. #16
    Gong!
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    Originally posted by CJ
    "I design for all browsers."
    Likewise.

    "Netscape can't even display nested tables right, and if I'm right (I am) -- "
    Of course it can. It just depends how you do it - I have never had any problems with tables in Netscape and yes, I do use a lot of nested tables. Perhaps it's just the way you're used to do it and if the way doesn't work it could need a bit of brushing up.

    "I browse in Internet Explorer because it's the best, but I design for all browsers."
    I use IE quite often, but most of my time I browse with Opera, I like the fact that it's so fast and it has better keyboard shortcuts. Sure, it's not perfect, but neither is IE.
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  17. #17
    SitePoint Enthusiast emcgill's Avatar
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    Hey,

    I browse with IE all the time but I have Netscape on my machine (4.7, 6) just to see how it looks in them. I design for Netscape, then (chances are) it will work well in IE.

    I don't understand what the deal is with schools using Netscape. My original High school uses Netscape, and then the one up here that I am at right now for a special computer class also sets the default to Netscape (although everyone uses IE).

    Whats the deal? Do all schools do this, or is it just these?
    Why do educators prefer Netscape, just because they know its the underdog? Or just for no reason at all?

    Just wondering.

    Thanks,


    Eric McGill
    http://www.fivemiledesign.com

  18. #18
    SitePoint Member
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    emcgill > i worked in computer support in an educational institution and yes we used NN 4 as well. the main reason was ease of configuration with proxies etc, and the configuration could easily be copied in the logon script when a user (ie. smart A$$ student! hehe) logs on... but we did move to IE 5 before the end of last year, as it can just as easily be configured with the registry anyway....

    back to the topic...

    I used to be a NN lover, MSIE hater, yadda yadda whatever, u know how it goes... i think everyone will agree NN 4 was great when it was released, at the time it was the best browser by far.

    however, then came IE 4 i personally didn't use IE 4 much at all, i didn't REALLY jump on the IE bandwagon until IE 5, but I could never go back to browsing with NN 4 now. the only thing i miss are the netscape bookmarks, but i'm used to IE's favourites now so i don't mind too much


    So how do I design my pages?..
    First up for IE
    then I make sure it works in netscape 4 (it almost always does, execpt for some CSS stuff)

    NN 6 is very cool i must admit, and the site displays very very close to pixel perfect in comparison to IE, and the same with Opera 5 which I also must admit is pretty good now.

    I'm very happy with IE 4.x and up, NN6, and Opera 5, and really anybody with much less does just need to upgrade IMO.. but i do make sure then NN4 compatibility is there, but I don't go to the trouble to check back further than that, I think the line has to be drawn somewhere? (unfortunately, but thats how things happen)
    Anyway, I guess the most important thing is that I reckon close to 100% of the ppl who visit the site wouldn't have and trouble with it displaying correctly.

  19. #19
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    hey carter. agree with you on your points.

    and...WELCOME TO SITEPOINT FORUMS!
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein

  20. #20
    SitePoint Addict klisis's Avatar
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    Well, Believe or not, no matter how hard I tried, my sites I have made have been looking ok in Netscape. I sometimes wonder why so many people complain of Netscape. I find it a little slower than IE though.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Addict klisis's Avatar
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    Hmm, I see someone I know.
    Hey, hmahonen. Nice to see thee there.

  22. #22
    Gong!
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    People should realize that if they are going to use a bit more Javascript, CSS and other relativily "new" techniques, they can't make a site that looks exactly the same on even the major browsers.

    But should that be the reason to stop supporting other browsers than IE as well? No. Just a bit of consideration before making a page and it can look darn good on IE and newer browsers, moderate on older browsers and even browsable with Lynx - it's all up to the designer.

    Originally posted by klisis
    Hmm, I see someone I know.
    Hey, hmahonen. Nice to see thee there.
    Indeed, nice to see
    Last edited by hmahonen; Apr 23, 2001 at 08:27.
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  23. #23
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hmahonen
    <font face="verdana, arial, helvetica" size="2" class="mfont">People should realize that if they are going to use a bit more Javascript, CSS and other relativily "new" techniques, they can't make a site that looks exactly the same on even the major browsers.
    I would like to clarify that using JavaScript and CSS will enable web sites to look the same more efficiently. Need I explain further?


    Unless you're talking about version 3.0 browsers.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein

  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot DarkMonkey's Avatar
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    My views on the subject are mixed. On one hand Netscape is following W3C standards, like it should, yet on the other it is totally infuriating that bordercolor, say, doesn't work.

    However Netscape's incompatibility is IE's fault in many ways. By inventing new tags which havn't been stadardised they are contributing towards browser incompatibility. Some of the tags, however, are actually very good, and should be added to the standard. However somebody told me once that Microsoft have patented the techniques of incorporating these new styles and the like, which makes it much harder for netscape to implement them.

    Another thing to note of course is that if Microsoft get their way and people simply stop developing sites for netscape, people will be FORCED to change browsers, NS will go bust, there will be no competition, Microsoft will become totally complacent and they will have the entire market to themselves, and hence a lower experience for us all.

    We are doing EVERYONE and the collective Internet a favour when we develop for NS and IE (although I advocate that, even I can't be arsed to develop for Oprah and the TV and DC browsers, and the ilk).

  25. #25
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DarkMonkey
    My views on the subject are mixed. On one hand Netscape is following W3C standards, like it should, yet on the other it is totally infuriating that bordercolor, say, doesn't work.
    Netscape 4 and IE5 ain't complying with the standards fully.

    Consider Mozilla, IE5 Mac to be compliant.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
    -- Albert Einstein


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