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Thread: HTML vs XHTML

  1. #26
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Personally, I believe that *now* is the time that it is safe to say that version 4 or greater browsers are universal (or are over 95% of the global user base anyway). With this in mind I developed my first CSS/<DIV> only site just recently. This seams about right given that version 4 browsers appeared about 4 years ago - 4 or 5 years for widespread adoption seems reasonable.

    I don't know who made the comment (I'm not going to go back ad re-read the thread) about finding tables to code than <div> Wow, I've always thought that tables were the web designer's enemy. They were never designed to be a layout tool other than for providing spreadsheet like table formating for data. I am curious as to what you find you can't do with <div> that you can with a table, or what you find a table can do better or more easily? Just curios, because that statement goes against my (very limited) experience. Actually, I do lie about that. I recently did up a page in dreamweaver using <div> and converted them all into a table so that if the user is using a huge font size, all the design resizes to accommodate (it is my policy to not set absolute sizes for main display text - I wish other ppl would follow this rule!). I'm sure you could probably do something to the divs to make them dynamically resize where necessary - but I don't know it.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    nesting DIV's can lead to troubles in NS. You cannot get the intricate layout that tables allow you using a DIV.

    1) DIV is a block level element and as such has a carriage return inherent in it.ie. anything after a DIV will be two lines down from it

    2) You cannot get a 3 column variable-width layout using DIV's. Browsers cannot render it. (See www.alistapart.org for info about their redesign)
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  3. #28
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Thanks - the last time I did any serious HTML coding was about 4 years ago - and sheesh - things have changed. You can't get away with the crapola that passed as cool design 4-6 years ago, that's for sure!

  4. #29
    SitePoint Guru sowen's Avatar
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    OK! I am now totally confused

    Just been playing around with Opera 5, IE6 and NS6 trying to produce layout without tables.

    A 4 area layout fixed at 748px. Header panel at 100px deep 748px wide, with three vertical panels below.

    The only way I could get consistent results was with the SPAN tag.

    Using DIV NS6 refused to display the header panel but rendered all the vertical ones starting from the top of the page even though T was set to 100px . Both O5 and IE6 did OK.

    None recognised LAYER or ILAYER (only to be expected - depreciated)

    Using SPAN they all rendered the same, and I thought DIV was the one W3 were pushing for layout, my head hurts!

    Also, With the header panel set at 100px deep and the three below set to position T 100px and height 100% you get a vertical scroll bar, how can you account for the top panel if you want to fill the screen?

    Oh.. and another teaser.. Is there any way of getting a footer panel that moves down as the main content expands?

    I need to sleep more - goodnight

  5. #30
    Jules
    SitePoint Community Guest
    Here's a page that has a 3 column layout that is variable width - which I found at alistapart. I thinkn it still has probs with IE4.5Mac.

    http://members.home.net/bigstripes/t...us_topbox.html

    There are many useful links from this page as well. Unfortunatly, we seem to still rely on hacks to resolve bugs in browsers - even the most current ones.

    I've been working on an article on this subject for SitePoint in my spare time. Here's a sneak preview of a SitePoint page I've rebuilt with no tables. It should work on all version 5+ browsers. It adopts the alistapart principle of not applying any styles to older browsers.

    http://sitepoint.com/cssdesign/

    Please let me know if it doesn't look right in your browsers.

  6. #31
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Cool! One interesting thing though. When I looked at the page in a non-complient browser - iCab pre2.4 for Mac - I did not get the message contained in the <iframe> tag. Yet I get it at www.alistapart.com if I load their pages into iCab.

    One other thing - and I'll post about this in the relevent forum because its been buggin me for ages. Sitepoint has to do something about those author thumbnail portraits! The orange background - I don't know what the technical term is - but it "biaises" the colouring of the jpegs giving you all a very unnatural glow. You all look like zombies that have been freshly dug up out of your graves or maybe Matt keeps you in a dark closet and feeds you a diet of nothing but fanta. Anyway, orange glow is not a healthy skin tone! I don't know if its something to do with the jpeg algorithms, or its perceptual or both.
    Last edited by freakysid; Apr 8, 2001 at 17:59.

  7. #32
    Team SitePoint AlexW's Avatar
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    That's what monitor radiation does to you
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  8. #33
    Jules
    SitePoint Community Guest
    Originally posted by freakysid
    ...When I looked at the page in a non-complient browser - iCab pre2.4 for Mac - I did not get the message...
    just changed the <iframe> to a <div> - hopefully the message will now show.
    Last edited by Jules; Apr 8, 2001 at 20:01.

  9. #34
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    This is a screenshot of what I'm seeing with IE 5.0, Win98
    http://a440zone.com/misc/sitepoint.jpg

  10. #35
    Jules
    SitePoint Community Guest
    very sloppy of me!

    ( just fixed it )

  11. #36
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    Gotta head to bed, so it's too late for another screenshot, but that took care of the text problem. Now the sections..not conversant in divs, so I want to say table cells, but of course that's not what they are. Anyway, they don't line up. The header areas on the left, where it says Build, Profit, Promote seem to be where you probably want them, but everything else in that column is off to the left about a quarter of an inch. In the main content area,there's also a bit of what I'm guessing is unwanted space between the section with the directory type navigation and search box and the lower white area. That's about half an inch, I'd say.
    On the other hand, it's all readable now.

  12. #37
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    Originally posted by creole
    nesting DIV's can lead to troubles in NS. You cannot get the intricate layout that tables allow you using a DIV.

    1) DIV is a block level element and as such has a carriage return inherent in it.ie. anything after a DIV will be two lines down from it
    True. However, the SPAN element is an inline element that is supported equally as well as DIV.

    IF (and I really mean IF) NN 4.x did not exist, we would all be in web heaven
    Thank you for your time!
    Marc

  13. #38
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    Originally posted by sowen
    OK! I am now totally confused

    Using SPAN they all rendered the same, and I thought DIV was the one W3 were pushing for layout, my head hurts!
    Well......actually BOTH DIV and SPAN are being pushed. DIV works like a <P> element in that it has space before and after. SPAN on the other hand is an inline element not unlike <B> but much more powerful.

    DIV formats a paragraph
    SPAN format a selection

    I hope that helps.
    Thank you for your time!
    Marc

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    GOD Bless the SPAN tag...

    I use it almost exlusively. I find it easier to add things to my tag usign CSS, than to try and take things away from it.

    For example, one of the reasons why I refuse to use DIV if at all possible is that it adds the carriage return afterwards. That is very rarely desirable and makes alignment difficult. If I wanted extra space, I would just put two <BR> tags.
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard creole's Avatar
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    GOD Bless the SPAN tag...

    I use it almost exlusively. I find it easier to add things to my tag usign CSS, than to try and take things away from it.

    For example, one of the reasons why I refuse to use DIV if at all possible is that it adds the carriage return afterwards. That is very rarely desirable and makes alignment difficult. If I wanted extra space, I would just put two <BR> tags.

    By the way Jules...that TopBox site is fantastic!

    Just as an FYI, it is now renamed to http://www.thenoodleincident.com .
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  16. #41
    The Hiding One lynlimz's Avatar
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    goosh
    the noodle inciddent site has a very unique design! its on my bookmark list now =) lol

    I too use span tags, but I use DIV too.
    both are equally useful!
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  17. #42
    Next stop: PHP! Marina's Avatar
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    Which browsers do support XHTML? I have tried to find the answer in this thread and on the net but I'm either blind or it's actually not mentioned anywhere. Spell it out for me, please!

  18. #43
    Team SitePoint AlexW's Avatar
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    Netscape 4 and down doesn't support it. For example I found out only the other day that this tag <br/> is totally ignored by it.

    Not sure about Opera, or IE 4 and down but IE5 support is good, as is Netscape 6.
    Last edited by AlexW; May 13, 2001 at 17:43.
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  19. #44
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    AlexW, I really haven't looked into XHTML too much - my HTML skills are pretty primative. However, I remember that a few months ago when I was reading about it at w3.org the way to write a self closing tag was like so

    <br />

    Note the space. This way, browsers which did not recognise XHTML would still process that tag and just ignore the /. Correct me if I am wrong.

  20. #45
    Team SitePoint AlexW's Avatar
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    Nice one Sid! . You're quite correct. One pesky little space.

    You learn something everyday
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  21. #46
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    HTML will still be used 3 years from now.

  22. #47
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    Weren't we all supposed to be "wireless" by now..


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