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  1. #101
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    OK, can you give 3 good reasons why your average internet user (technophiles don't fit this demographic, mind you) would feel the need to "take back the internet" in the first place?
    spyware - m$
    money - m$
    bugs - m$

    not saying there aren't bugs in firefox, although 99% of them are fixed before a version is released. i had to read a bio on someone last year for english, i chose gates to get inside the evil mind, so to speak, since the beginning until now they always released software that's buggy without a second thought. their reasoning is, release it now, fix it later

    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  2. #102
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    not saying there aren't bugs in firefox, although 99% of them are fixed before a version is released.
    And when was the last time a version of IE was released? As Jeremy said a few pages back, the IE team is back in business so to speak or at least more community-oriented. Read their blog, check some of the forums. They are listening to what we want and are planning ways to implement it.

  3. #103
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    And when was the last time a version of IE was released? As Jeremy said a few pages back, the IE team is back in business so to speak or at least more community-oriented. Read their blog, check some of the forums. They are listening to what we want and are planning ways to implement it.
    and how many service updates since then have they had to get you to download because of bugs? now, i wonder why it's been so long since the last version was released?
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    OK, can you give 3 good reasons why your average internet user (technophiles don't fit this demographic, mind you) would feel the need to "take back the internet" in the first place?
    Replace WOULD with SHOULD. Again, you're following the muddled masses in surrendering to apathy. Instead of wasting your time asking us why people would want to take back the Internet, how about TELLING YOUR VISITORS why they should take back the Internet?

    And there's no need to make it difficult for people who are truly stupid; just give them ONE good reason to take back the Internet - Microsoft.

  5. #105
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codyrockx
    spyware - m$
    money - m$
    bugs - m$
    Spyware I'll give you. But you mentioned money... what about it? And bugs... bugs are a part of using any software. I don't think your average computer user ever thinks "All these IE bugs make me wish I could take back the internet" ... In fact, aside from IE crashing occasionally, I can't think of any bugs so obvious and intrusive that your average user would consider it a problem or nuisance.
    Danielion
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  6. #106
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    If the open source community can get its act together and produce a truly good, user friendly operating system by early 2005 - long before Longhorn limps out of the corral - I suspect Firefox could take off like a rocket.
    IMO that can happen only if they somehow manage to make this OS compatible with all windows - based software people use.

    If that happens - I would nail my WinXP cd to the wall in the bathroom and forget about Windows once and forever.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  7. #107
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    Mandrake has to be the most dumbed-down version of linux, take that with Winex or Crossover Office and ta-da

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    IMO that can happen only if they somehow manage to make this OS compatible with all windows - based software people use.

    If that happens - I would nail my WinXP cd to the wall in the bathroom and forget about Windows once and forever.
    I hear ya. I'm largely tied down by Dreamweaver and perhaps Photoshop. (Can Photoshop be run on Linux using WINE or some other emulator?)

    I'm about to acquire a second computer (on long-term loan) that I'm going to install Linux on. I'm not geek enough to breeze through this stuff, but I'm desperate to get away with Microsoft. I'll use Firefox on both my Windows and Linux systems, though I'll keep Internet Explorer for testing purposes. Have to make sure the unenlightened masses can view my webpages!

    But getting back to your original point, if the open source community can produce a user friendly platform that runs all Windows software, I suspect we can kiss Internet Explorer goodby. It will just be another casualty of war.

  9. #109
    Super Ninja Monkey Travis's Avatar
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    Yep, Photoshop works with WINE. If you want an easy to use Linux distro buy Xandros. It comes with Crossover Office (WINE with an easy-to-use software installer) installed already and has a number of things you can't get with other distros. Take that system and install Cedega (fork of WINE specially for gaming) on it and you have most Windows applications and games running on Linux.
    Travis Watkins - Hyperactive Coder
    My Blog: Realist Anew
    Projects: Alacarte - Gnome Menu Editor

  10. #110
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/tv-cxoffice.png

    If IE will run under BSD, it'll run anywhere. And yes I believe Photoshop will run with Wine (never tried it) and instead of Dreamweaver, you could try SCiTE or Quanta.

  11. #111
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    Mandrake has to be the most dumbed-down version of linux, take that with Winex or Crossover Office and ta-da
    http://www.transgaming.com/
    I'm really, really glad to see this. Never heard of this before. Thanks Cam.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  12. #112
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Replace WOULD with SHOULD. Again, you're following the muddled masses in surrendering to apathy. Instead of wasting your time asking us why people would want to take back the Internet, how about TELLING YOUR VISITORS why they should take back the Internet?
    Don't go all Matrix on me... the internet hasn't been taken away from anyone. Folks like my parents use it as they wish, and apparently have a pretty positive experience in doing so. Some folks even use it on a daily basis. Let's not lose perspective here.

    I like Firefox for lots of reasons. However, compared to IE, in my case the pros don't quite outweigh the cons so I'll stick with IE for now. I've made my choice intelligently, based on experience and preference. Not out of "apathy".

    But here's something that might interest you.

    When I switched to Firefox for a trial run, I influenced my (non-technical) companion to do the same. His experience?

    He complained to me several times that Firefox kept randomly prompting him to "create a new profile". Every couple of days, he would open Firefox and not be able to do anything until creating a new profile (which had no apparent purpose). He found this confusing and frustrating, and eventually I showed him how to make IE his default once again. In this case, Firefox wasn't helping him to "take the internet back". It was in fact doing the opposite

    How can I, in good conscience, promote Firefox to everyone knowing that this might happen to them as well? Especially those completely un-savvy to computers and the internet. Firefox is great for some people. IE is great for others. Apathy has little or nothing to do with it.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Don't go all Matrix on me... the internet hasn't been taken away from anyone. Folks like my parents use it as they wish, and apparently have a pretty positive experience in doing so. Some folks even use it on a daily basis. Let's not lose perspective here.
    I haven't lost perspective at all. The Internet is obviously a tremendously powerful and important entity, and it CAN be taken over by other powerful entities. Given the attacks on our civil liberties in recent years and such Microsoft misadventures as "trusted computing," all intelligent people should zealously guard the Internet.

    "When I switched to Firefox for a trial run, I influenced my (non-technical) companion to do the same. His experience?

    "He complained to me several times that Firefox kept randomly prompting him to "create a new profile"."

    That's it??? You lost faith in Firefox because it prompted one of your friends to create a new profile? Sheez.

    I've never had that problem. I've had other problems with Firefox, and I've had many more problems with Internet Explorer.

    "Every couple of days, he would open Firefox and not be able to do anything until creating a new profile (which had no apparent purpose). He found this confusing and frustrating, and eventually I showed him how to make IE his default once again."

    Why didn't you show him how to fix the problem? That's what support groups are for.

    "How can I, in good conscience, promote Firefox to everyone knowing that this might happen to them as well?"

    Using that logic, we could probably argue that there at least 617 reasons to not use Internet Explorer.

    "Firefox is great for some people. IE is great for others."

    But only one is best for humankind - and that is NOT a Matrix statement.

    "Apathy has little or nothing to do with it."

    Actually, it does.

  14. #114
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    That's it??? You lost faith in Firefox because it prompted one of your friends to create a new profile? Sheez.
    I never lost faith in Firefox. But the persistent "create a new profile" issue was annoying and, compared to his experience with IE, less pleasant.

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Why didn't you show him how to fix the problem? That's what support groups are for.
    Erm, much better things to do with my time. IE was never "broke" so to speak, it was just a trial run for curiosity's sake. Neither I nor he were looking for a new browser, just trying out an alternative. It failed, in our cases, to show itself to be the better browser, simple as that. In his case, Firefox was inconveniencing him in a way that IE never did.

    I chose to stick with IE for completely different reasons, as I didn't have that same problem on my own computer. But I assure you that my reasoning had nothing to do with apathy.

    You see, geosite, "better" has different meanings to different people. You obviously have had a very negative experience with IE, so I don't blame you for finding Firefox to be the better browser. But you have to open your mind to the fact that not everyone shares your experiences or viewpoints.

    Firefox is not going to bring the human race to a higher plane of existence. It is just a browser. Some people will love it. Some will hate it. Thankfully we live in a world where that's alright (even though some people fail to recognize that). As for this "apathy" you keep trying to convince us of... I assure you that apathy towards one's web browser is the least of the world's problems.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    You see, geosite, "better" has different meanings to different people. You obviously have had a very negative experience with IE, so I don't blame you for finding Firefox to be the better browser. But you have to open your mind to the fact that not everyone shares your experiences or viewpoints.
    Read my previous post, where I referred to a BIGGER PICTURE. Ultimately, this isn't about your or me; it's about the MAJORITY of users. Firefox is obviously a big hit with very many technophiles - possibly the majority. With the proper promotion, it could also be a big hit with the muddled masses, and I suspect the average user would benefit from switching over in some small way.

    But if millions of people switched, they could have a positive impact on something much bigger.

    "Firefox is not going to bring the human race to a higher plane of existence."

    Once again, you're out of focus. Think BIGGER PICTURE. Firefox is but one piece of a bigger whole that could indeed have a lot to offer humankind. Remember, we're talking about computers, not can openers.

    "As for this "apathy" you keep trying to convince us of... I assure you that apathy towards one's web browser is the least of the world's problems."

    Ah, but it's evidence of a much larger apathy that is indeed an enormous problem. If people are too apathetic to vote and webmasters too apathetic to promote Firefox and other open source software, then what's the use of getting up in the morning?

  16. #116
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    Frontpage is the culprit

    "Tis all them thar proprietary extensions excusively Microsoft's, what confuses the rest who comply with each other. Introductory webdev books like "Build Your Own Website " warn against using many of the proprietary features of Frontpage, even to the point of suggesting to novices that they get some other software, avoiding the accidental implimentation of something exclusive. Incidentally, IE can mangle things that work in all the rest. My prescription? INSTALL 'EM ALL! Variety is the spice of life. They all have their own advantages and qwirks.

  17. #117
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    If people are too apathetic to vote and webmasters too apathetic to promote Firefox and other open source software... blah blah blah
    Once again... Firefox isn't the best browser for EVERYONE, as I've clearly demonstrated (and it's obvious anyway). Insisting that it is sounds rather tyrannical.

    I personally don't know Firefox thoroughly enough to go around promoting it to everyone. I agree with you that it has a lot of potential. I'm very interested to see where it's heading.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  18. #118
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    I'm with Syn here, basic rule of humanity, everybody is different therefore Firefox simply cannot provide a better internet experience for everybody.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Once again... Firefox isn't the best browser for EVERYONE, as I've clearly demonstrated (and it's obvious anyway). Insisting that it is sounds rather tyrannical.
    I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested that Firefox is the best browser for EVERYONE. Several of us have instead suggested that it's the best browser for the majority, and I would qualify that with the words "vast majority."

    But people who prefer to stick with Internet Explorer - whether they idolize Bill Gates, they're too stupid to download Firefox and make it work, or they're paralyzed by apathy - are welcome to it.

    "I personally don't know Firefox thoroughly enough to go around promoting it to everyone."

    I've used both browsers extensively, and I feel very confident promoting Firefox, for a wide variety of reasons. I think Firefox will continue to gain "market share" at least until Microsoft issues its next generation of Internet Explorer, and I hope Firefox prevails after that. I think Firefox and Linux could conceivably provide the one-two punch that will knock Microsoft down a couple notches.

  20. #120
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    But people who prefer to stick with Internet Explorer - whether they idolize Bill Gates, they're too stupid to download Firefox and make it work, or they're paralyzed by apathy - are welcome to it.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  21. #121
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    But people who prefer to stick with Internet Explorer - whether they idolize Bill Gates, they're too stupid to download Firefox and make it work, or they're paralyzed by apathy - are welcome to it.
    Kind of contradictive don't you think? Just before that you're telling us how you realise that Firefox mightn't be the best option for everybody and then contrinue to post that...

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    Kind of contradictive don't you think? Just before that you're telling us how you realise that Firefox mightn't be the best option for everybody and then contrinue to post that...
    No - I've never said any browser was the best for EVERYBODY. That's ridiculous.

    I think Firefox is the better choice for the VAST MAJORITY. I also think it will continue to catch up with Internet Explorer at least until Microsoft unveils its next security nightmare. I also think Firefox could do still better if people spent more time promoting it instead of whining "It's no use!"

    But I've never said Firefox is the best choice for every single individual.

  23. #123
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    No - I've never said any browser was the best for EVERYBODY. That's ridiculous
    Well, in the same breath you utterly insulted anyone who doesn't use Firefox, even if they have tried Firefox and didn't like it. How's that for ridiculous?

    Are you this self-righteous in general, or just when it comes to life-changing, world-uniting, apathy-destroying browsers like Firefox?
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Well, in the same breath you utterly insulted anyone who doesn't use Firefox, even if they have tried Firefox and didn't like it. How's that for ridiculous?
    Really? I'm not one of those who said Firefox will never catch on because people are too apathetic or stupid to try it; that's one of the more prominent themes on this thread. If people try Firefox and don't like it, that's their business. But citing a friend who had trouble with his profiles as a reason for not recommending Firefox is patently absurd. Sheez, we could probably brainstorm a couple dozen problems with Firefox - and a couple hundred for Internet Explorer.

    Actually, this is the kind of crap that's insulting:

    "Are you this self-righteous in general, or just when it comes to life-changing, world-uniting, apathy-destroying browsers like Firefox?"

    Show me where I said Firefox is "life-changing, world-uniting, apathy-destroying." Show me where I said EVERYONE should use Firefox.

    I've clearly said - repeatedly - that Firefox should be seen as part of a bigger picture. Open source software collectively could strike a blow against corporate corruption and improve our lives in many ways if properly promoted and used.

    Your hysterics and insistence on misinterpreting my statements add nothing to the discussion. In fact, I suspect that's another reason Firefox may gain on Internet Explorer - people are getting tired of all the Microsoft hype and disinformation.

  25. #125
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Really? I'm not one of those who said Firefox will never catch on because people are too apathetic or stupid to try it
    No, you only said you hoped Firefox would catch on despite people being too apathetic or stupid to try it.

    But citing a friend who had trouble with his profiles as a reason for not recommending Firefox is patently absurd.
    I'm not anti-Firefox. I just don't have a good reason to go around promoting it over IE. At the same time, I'm not going around promoting IE, either. I encourage everyone to let their own experiences be their guide. Don't worry, though, I pose no threat to your Firefox revolution.

    Unlike you, I have presented logic and accounts of experience in my contributions to this thread. I've given examples as to why many non-technical people may find Firefox less easy and less pleasant to use than IE... that's not to say that they won't love Firefox, as it's possible they might -- and if so, good for them.

    You, on the other hand, have yet to give one solid example of Firefox's superiority over IE's, except to say that Firefox is better simply because it isn't developed by Microsoft, thrown in with several lofty notions about the possibility of the human race becoming collectively better through the promotion of Firefox.

    I think you should adopt this as your own personal slogan for Firefox:

    "Firefox: Don't Ask Why, Just Use It, Stupid!"

    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...


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