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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrintEastwood
    The author obviously thinks the average person is really really stupid.
    in other words, the author has nailed the problem precisely

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  2. #77
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    You people really need to get out more. You think everybody but yourselves is really really stupid? You'd be surprised at what they know and you don't.

    And just because somebody can find some mentally retarded person who is utterly perplexed by a computer, doesn't mean Firefox is too complex. Configuring IE is way way more complex and obtuse.

    /cluestick

  3. #78
    SitePoint Member MrFawlty's Avatar
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    I've been watching this forum closely and it seems everyone is missing a few points:

    1. Why should it be up to Microsoft to give people a choice? They make IE, so they're going to promote IE. Surely it's up to the people who make PCs, and the people who go around helping consumers with their PCs, to educate and offer a choice, not Microsoft.

    2. Yes Firefox and Opera are better browsers, but in what sense? From a programmer/designer's point of view, because they make it better for them. It doesn't make it better for the average Joe, who couldn't care less what browser they use, even if they understand what a browser is.

    3. The only way other browsers are going to make any significant impact on consumers is by way of 'brand-awareness'. Think of Dyson. For years Hoover was the world leader in vacuum cleaners, and no-one thought to change things. Then Dyson came along and slowly but surely educated people by way of clever marketing and good products that theirs was better. Now Dyson sales are above that of Hoover's. Mozilla & Opera need to do something similar if it is possible.

    After saying all that, I exclusively use Opera, as I think it is by far the best browser around. I rate Firefox as no.2 and IE bringing up the rear, but then I am a programmer, so I would think like that.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Enthusiast bennettpr's Avatar
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    Most people will use whatever comes installed on their computer
    Dangerous generalisation - my 65 year old father in law is onto his third non-IE browser install and I have regularly had retired people approach me in tech stores to discuss installing Linux. My experience is that windows (especially XP) have had a gutsful of M$ and are ready to switch.

    Of course M$ will of cource continue to capitalise on the 'we are the default installed OS because no-one else even knows there is a choice, and when they do our marketing will make them too scared to change' adavantage which they have played on for...oh, about 15 years now, but when Joe User starts getting so ticked He / she is even considering switching OS's, M$ has to be worried...
    on the bandwagon.....
    http://bennettpr.blogspot.com

  5. #80
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrintEastwood
    That article's ridiculous. The author obviously thinks the average person is really really stupid. If the average person can figure out how to drive a car, talk on the phone, turn on their computer, use a microwave, etc. then they can use Firefox. Creating a "Go" button plugin would be trivial too. Sheesh.
    The point of the article wasn't that people can't use Firefox. It was that they see no reason to do so. Quite a big difference.
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  6. #81
    SitePoint Enthusiast bennettpr's Avatar
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    Why should it be up to Microsoft to give people a choice?
    we're damn lucky they still offer an API for their OS
    on the bandwagon.....
    http://bennettpr.blogspot.com

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    techies love it, but it scares the cr@p out of the ordinary surfer don't miss the part about all the gobbledegook on the firefox home page
    Red herring! My mother and wife are classic under achivers on the computer (especially my mother). A couple years ago, I took IE away from them and made them use Opera. Then this summer I took away Opera and gave them Firefox. Guess what, they never knew the difference. Okay so the name changed from favorites to bookmarks, big deal. They still had an address bar, a forward button, a back button and a print button. That's all they really cared about. I imagine in the end this is all the average user really cares about.

    I'd wager that if one put a IE like skin on Firefox most average users would never notice that anything changed.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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  8. #83
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    hahaha - look whats making the rounds on the pundits sites

    YOU MIGHT BE AN IE USER, IF…

    1. If your email address is listed on your business cards as “www.joesmith@yahoo.com", you might be an IE user.

    2. If you actually think you will get $50 for “punching the monkey.”

    3. When someone tells you to restart your computer and you turn the monitor off and back on, you just might be an IE user.

    4. If someone tells you to go to “www.whatever.com” so you go to Google and search for it, you are probably an IE user.

    5. If someone tells you you need a firewall and so you go to the store and buy Norton firewall in a box for $70, you might just possibly be an IE user.

    6. When you get a popup ad showing a Windows-like warning and you think it is a Windows warning box, you might be an IE user.

    7. If you web browser has 8 search bars and you don’t even know how they got there, you might be an IE user.

    8. If you get pop-up ads and you aren’t even using the Internet, you just might possibly be an IE user.

    9. If you have mysterious charges on your card because you received an email from “E-Bay” saying your account would be suspended if you didn’t update your credit card information by clicking “this link", you must be an IE user.

    10. If, while reading this list, you are receiving the message “NT AUTHORITY/SYSTEM will shut down in 60 seconds", you might be an IE user.

  9. #84
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    First, I saw the post warning against veering off topic into the "Microsoft Is/Is Not Evil" wilderness. (But feel free to PM me if you want to know my learned opinion.

    However, even a non-political discussion of this topic has to embrace the C-word - corruption. Microsoft is known for its...uh, "drastic" business tactics, which is something to consider while pondering the first post on this thread:

    "In just six day the number of download for firefox have pass the one million download mile stone, will firefox be able to get mainstream acceptance and challege the dominance the IE? What is ur opinion?"

    What factors will determine which browser wins? They include browser quality, consumer preferences (which in turn depends somewhat on consumer education), and the eternal Microsoft wild card (the C-word).

    In the long run, the browser of choice will be determined largely by the operating system of choice, as others have noted on this thread. And my hunch is that Linux will eventually rule IF it can survive the endless stream of dirty tricks that have been thrown at it.

    I believe that, on a level playing field, Firefox could and should kick Internet Explorer's butt. Of course, there's nothing level about the playing field, which means Firefox MIGHT still prevail, but I wouldn't bet money on any particular outcome.

    I use Firefox almost exclusively, and I love it. I've had very few problems with it. My perception is that it's slightly easier to design websites for Firefox than for Internet Explorer.

    By the way, I also plug the H*ll out of Firefox on all my websites, which raises another point. I'm sick of hearing the tired old argument that people are too stupid to figure out how to download and install Firefox - even though I believe there's some truth to it!

    I've been politically active for several years, and there's nothing like running for office to make you realize just how stupid people are. But is every single citizen too dumb to figure out how to install and use Firefox? Come on!

    In fact, this argument is too frequently used as a cop-out by 1) Microsoft operatives, and 2) webmasters who are too lazy or too gutless to take a stand.

    Let's put things in perspective: Doctors long ago lost their profession to the health maintenance industry. I worked in public education during the tragic years when our public schools became privatized.

    What field of employment can you think of that offers more freedom than web design? It rocks! Yet most web designers have sold their souls to Microsoft, even refusing to tell their visistors and clients about software that is BETTER and often FREE to boot! In a sense, they're actually ripping off their own visitors and clients, or at least not doing a very good job of advocating for them.

    Now don't accuse me of going off on a tangent, because I'm leading up to a very important point. I earlier suggested that the outcome of this latest browser war will be determined by a number of factors, including consumer education. Well, who's going to educate the public???

    We can sit on the sidelines and passively debate the outcome of this battle, or we can MAKE the outcome by helping to educate our colleagues, visitors and clients. Yes, the "sheeple" are stupid, but one of the reasons they're stupid is that no one tries to educate them. One could easily argue that web designers are stupid.

    When people say, "People are too stupid to figure out Firefox," we should ask them, "Have you tried to educate them?" "Where's the Firefox promotion on your website? And how could you possibly know your campaign isn't a success unless you have some way of monitoring everyone who reads it?"

    If we're going to educate the public, we should also explore some of the issues that we can't discuss in this thread. I think many high-tech types spend so much time with their computers, they lose site of the bigger picture, which may heavily impact what they do with their computers.

    Given the major problems Microsoft is experiencing - including the pre-Longhorn Ice Age - and the tremendous promotion campaign being waged by the folks at Firefox, I think Firefox will continue to kick butt for at least a few months. Microsoft will undoubtedly strike back, but just a few thousand influential web designers could do a lot to educate the public and convince them to stick with the superior choice.

    P.S. It would be interesting to see Internet Explorer fans similarly promote IE as the best browser on their websites. What kind of teasers might they use?:

    "Create your own web standards with Internet Explorer!"
    "Forget competition, just use whatever comes with your computer!"
    "If you aren't a professional and you aren't terribly intelligent, stick with IE!"
    "Web designers who use FrontPage LOVE Internet Explorer!"

  10. #85
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    absolutely geosite, i'm a firefox fanatic, although i know it has already surpassed internet explorer in terms of usability and design, as well as i think microsoft is going to be hurting very soon when they start realizing they have lost. listen to this joke:

    A wealthy old businessman died and his soul soon left to purgatory (point between heaven and hell). He waited in line until it was his turn. When he got up to the gate keeper, the keeper explained to him that he had one day to visit hell, and one day to visit heaven, then he would have to choose which he liked best and would stay there the rest of his life.
    His first day was in hell. He went down the elevator and came out in a large field with a party going on. There were all his corporate buddies having fun, and drinking. He met satan and asked, "Isn't hell supposed to be like, lava and extremely hot?". He replied, "Ofcourse not, you'll love it down here!". So he left because his time was up and thought to himself, gee, I had a really good time there.
    His next day was in heaven. He got up there and had a good time playing the harp and singing with the others there. Then he returned to purgatory at the end of the day.
    The gate keeper asked him how each was and which he wanted to stay at. He replied, "Well, hell was pretty cool, heaven was about the same, but I think I'll go to hell." So he went down the elevator whence again and when he got there all his friends were in rags and there was lava flowing everywhere, and satan standing there. He asked him, "What happened to all the party going on yesterday"
    Satan responded, "Yesterday we were campaining, today you voted for us."

    Just makes ya think, which one is microsoft?
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  11. #86
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    That article's ridiculous. The author obviously thinks the average pers really really stupid. If the average person can figure out how to drive a car, talk on the phone, turn on their computer, use a microwave, etc. then they can use Firefox. Creating a "Go" button plugin would be trivial too. Sheesh.
    I actually think the writer of the article is spot on... I don't think he's saying people can't figure out how to use Firefox, just that your average person won't see a reason WHY they should use Firefox, and he's right... the jargon all over Mozilla's Firefox page isn't going to convince them, just confuse them. In many ways, Firefox really does seem to be geared towards the more technically savvy crowd, rather than the average computer user.

    I also agree completely with the Go button issue... it's not very user-friendly to assume all people will just intuitively know to hit "Enter". May sound trivial to us, but what about those people who really don't know that sort of thing?

    Most people's lives don't revolve around computers. My dad types URLs into Google's search box, and clicks on the first search result as a means of viewing a particular website. I get web forms from prospective clients all the time who enter their home address in my "Web Address" field, or put www's in their email address. It's not that people are stupid, their lives just don't revolve around computers and the internet like most of ours do.

    I also agree that Firefox's pop up blocker is a bit over zealous. But so is the new IE SP2's, and I'm really starting to hate IE's new ActiveX blocker.

    Pleh.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by codyrockx
    absolutely geosite, i'm a firefox fanatic, although i know it has already surpassed internet explorer in terms of usability and design, as well as i think microsoft is going to be hurting very soon when they start realizing they have lost. listen to this joke:

    A wealthy old businessman died and his soul soon left to purgatory (point between heaven and hell). He waited in line until it was his turn. When he got up to the gate keeper, the keeper explained to him that he had one day to visit hell, and one day to visit heaven, then he would have to choose which he liked best and would stay there the rest of his life.
    His first day was in hell. He went down the elevator and came out in a large field with a party going on. There were all his corporate buddies having fun, and drinking. He met satan and asked, "Isn't hell supposed to be like, lava and extremely hot?". He replied, "Ofcourse not, you'll love it down here!". So he left because his time was up and thought to himself, gee, I had a really good time there.
    His next day was in heaven. He got up there and had a good time playing the harp and singing with the others there. Then he returned to purgatory at the end of the day.
    The gate keeper asked him how each was and which he wanted to stay at. He replied, "Well, hell was pretty cool, heaven was about the same, but I think I'll go to hell." So he went down the elevator whence again and when he got there all his friends were in rags and there was lava flowing everywhere, and satan standing there. He asked him, "What happened to all the party going on yesterday"
    Satan responded, "Yesterday we were campaining, today you voted for us."

    Just makes ya think, which one is microsoft?
    Yeah, that reminds me of when I go to a MS sales event, and then when I get home and actually try their products.

  13. #88
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Yet most web designers have sold their souls to Microsoft
    Just out of curiosity, what are you basing this statement on?
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    I actually think the writer of the article is spot on... I don't think he's saying people can't figure out how to use Firefox, just that your average person won't see a reason WHY they should use Firefox, and he's right...
    We have to EDUCATE them. Please see my previous post.

    "The jargon all over Mozilla's Firefox page isn't going to convince them, just confuse them. In many ways, Firefox really does seem to be geared towards the more technically savvy crowd, rather than the average computer user."

    I agree with you there. The open source crowd really doesn't have its head screwed on straight, in a number of respects. I sometimes wonder if this is partly a symptom of Microsoft infiltration, but that's another story.

    "Most people's lives don't revolve around computers."

    But their lives can be destroyed by computers. Security issues alone make Firefox a great "investment."

  15. #90
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    We have to EDUCATE them.
    I'd agree with that. First priority should be educating web designers, so they stop producing websites that look horrible in Firefox
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  16. #91
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    Security issues alone make Firefox a great "investment."
    SP2 fixes nearly all of those security issues, if IE supported tabbed-browsing without an addon like Avant or MyIE2 I'd probably go back to it in all seriousness.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Just out of curiosity, what are you basing this statement on?
    They blindly follow where Micosoft leads. They meekly accept Microsoft's "standards" and often recommend Microsoft products even when there are better options that are also free.

    It's like an architect who subscribes to some loony tune's architectural theories, at the same time selling his customers overpriced (and typically defective) lumber produced by that same loony tune, resulting in tragically flawed homes when he could give them better homes at a LOWER price. Simple logic dictates that an individual who sells homes that are both better and cheaper will get more business, which tends to suggest that web designers are just as stupid as the visitors they malign.

    I was trying to persuade web designers on various forums to promote Firefox long before Mozilla launched its advertising blitz, but the responses I got were pathetic:

    "It's no use."
    "My visitors are too stupid to figure it out."
    "No one cares."
    "You can't beat Microsoft."

    For crying out loud, they sound like a bunch of teachers.

    Look at my page at http://www.politix.us/world/ I have a linked Firefox image at the bottom of the page. Any web designer who can't figure out how to do that is STUPID. I think this page is also rigged to display a drop down ad when you first visit the site; I have it on most of my sites. It may be overkill, but I really want to get the word out.

    When I ran for office, I even promoted Firefox on my campaign website. These are all SIMPLE, COMMON SENSE strategies, yet virtually no one will even give them a try.

    I don't have much use for people who just say, "It's no use." Frankly, I think they give the web design profession a bad name.

  18. #93
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    i'm in the same boat as you geosite
    www.tc6.net
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    SP2 fixes nearly all of those security issues, if IE supported tabbed-browsing without an addon like Avant or MyIE2 I'd probably go back to it in all seriousness.
    If people are too stupid to figure out how to use Firefox, how can we expect them to understand what you wrote? What's SP2? Where does one get it? How do you install it? Is it free?

    And has Microsoft really fixed "nearly all of those security issues," or are there dozens more waiting to be discovered. Honestly, Microsoftware seems like a giant sieve.

    Speaking of which, many people claim that the reason Microsoft attracts so many viruses is its size; it's simply a bigger target. I think that's just partly true at best. The fact is, many people HATE Microsoft, and for every good reason. That's another advantage of Firefox; it isn't just a smaller target, it isn't a target at all.

    I'm not saying there are no security issues with Firefox, but I'll bet people who use Firefox have fewer problems than do people who use Internet Explorer. And if they used Firefox with a Linux operating system, they'd be still safer from viruses.

    If the open source community can get its act together and produce a truly good, user friendly operating system by early 2005 - long before Longhorn limps out of the corral - I suspect Firefox could take off like a rocket.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by codyrockx
    i'm in the same boat as you geosite
    www.tc6.net
    So is that your website?

    I saw the Firefox logo at the bottom of the page and said BINGO! That's precisely the slogan I chose for my websites, "Take Back the Web," because that's what open source software is all about to me. There's more to life than a better operating system or browser.

  21. #96
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    So is that your website?

    I saw the Firefox logo at the bottom of the page and said BINGO! That's precisely the slogan I chose for my websites, "Take Back the Web," because that's what open source software is all about to me. There's more to life than a better operating system or browser.
    yep, sure is
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  22. #97
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    I'm not saying there are no security issues with Firefox, but I'll bet people who use Firefox have fewer problems than do people who use Internet Explorer. And if they used Firefox with a Linux operating system, they'd be still safer from viruses.
    Well in that vein of thinking, if everyone just built their own unique OS and browser, they could possibly be even safer!

    I've used Explorer for years, and have never had a problem. And I use the web much more than your average person... it is the source of my livelihood. I can appreciate and respect cheering for Firefox, but we're not talking about a messiah here... it is just a web browser, and no matter how passionate you feel about it, your average home computer user's life most likely won't be profoundly affected one way or the other. It isn't really useful to tout IE as the "wrong" choice and Firefox as "obviously the best thing ever to happen to the human race, if only people would just WAKE UP...".

    Education and propaganda are 2 different things. Firefox has faults, too.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    I've used Explorer for years, and have never had a problem.
    Microsoft has been a daily source of problems for me. What percentage of them derive from Internet Explorer? Who knows? I have better things to do with my time than document Microsoft flaws.

    "I can appreciate and respect cheering for Firefox, but we're not talking about a messiah here... it is just a web browser, and no matter how passionate you feel about it, your average home computer user's life most likely won't be profoundly affected one way or the other. It isn't really useful to tout IE as the "wrong" choice and Firefox as "obviously the best thing ever to happen to the human race, if only people would just WAKE UP..."."

    I never said Firefox was a Messiah; that's a title most people in our greedy society hang around Bill Gates' neck. However, I do think Firefox is more than just a better browser. You have to look at the bigger picture and figure out how the pieces fit together to really understand Firefox's potential. The slogan "Take back the Internet" says it all.

    In fact, people around the world have had little good news over the past few years. I think open source software could be one of the most cheerful stories out there - but how it ends up is anyone's guess.

    Will the open source community get its head screwed on straight in time to ward off Microsoft's latest grab bag of dirty tricks? Will they simply sell out to Microsoft? I don't think we'll have to wait long to learn the answers to these questions.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    The slogan "Take back the Internet" says it all.
    OK, can you give 3 good reasons why your average internet user (technophiles don't fit this demographic, mind you) would feel the need to "take back the internet" in the first place?
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  25. #100
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    If people are too stupid to figure out how to use Firefox, how can we expect them to understand what you wrote? What's SP2? Where does one get it? How do you install it? Is it free?

    And has Microsoft really fixed "nearly all of those security issues," or are there dozens more waiting to be discovered. Honestly, Microsoftware seems like a giant sieve.
    Every single computer illiterate person running Windows XP and doesn't know what Control Panel is will now have SP2 installed. Automatic Update handles it all And yes I'm sure there are still security holes in the revamped IE, but it is many times better than it was and there's probably just as many in Firefox, people just haven't found them yet. I remember when nothing got through Firefox's popup blocker, now I'm seeing more and more sites that have managed this with some creative Javascript. All someone needs to do is figure out how to install a XPI control without displaying the box or even with displaying the box (god knows a lot of IE users just click Yes) and Firefox will be just as vulerable as IE used to be.


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