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  1. #51
    SitePoint Member robertngo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuulJin
    If IE 7 comes out supporting the w3c standards perfectly, having tabbed browsing, pop-up/ad blocking, and a fancy favorites manager... then there isn't any reason to choose Firefox over IE. Especially considering the amount of integration with the OS that IE can bring by simply being developed by MS. Although, Firefox is a cool name, and I love the icon.

    Also... it's human to copy others. It's simply what we do. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. We take what works and make it better. That's how we advance. From the day we're born, we're learning things that others have already learned and wrote into some form of media for us to learn from. We save time by learning that way, instead of starting from scratch for all our knowledge.

    Get over it, everyone copies the good stuff. It's how everything advances.
    It is unlikely that there will be upgrade for IE until longhorn is out in 2006, considering how fast firefox is progressing, i belive firefox will still have more new feature than IE 7.

    IE 7 may not be available for older version of windows, take the for example of the IE update in sp2, it is not available of older version of windows. Microsoft is forcing user that want have a more secure IE to pay for a upgrade to xp.

  2. #52
    SitePoint Guru OfficeOfTheLaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuulJin
    If IE 7 comes out supporting the w3c standards perfectly, having tabbed browsing, pop-up/ad blocking, and a fancy favorites manager... then there isn't any reason to choose Firefox over IE. Especially considering the amount of integration with the OS that IE can bring by simply being developed by MS.
    Even if I did use windows, I wouldn't hold my breath. Ever read the IE discussions over on channel 9? The general attitude about supporting standards and CSS was generally "Mom and Pop don't care about fancy schmancy things like CSS".

    Also, the talk was around new features, i.e. CSS3 support and stuff. Frankly, CSS3 is nice and all, but I would perfer they fix their CSS1 and CSS2 rendering so that it does what it's supposed to.

    My thoughts? Longhorn will come out arounf Febuary 2007 along with IE7. It will come with a few new features, like tabbed browsing and such, but pages completely designed to standards with no IE hacks will STILL look like a train wreck and it will probably support a nice host of IE specific stuff, as usual.

    And, following the normal Microsoft philosophy, they'll soon be awarded a patent for tabbed browsing and pop up blocking.

    James Carr, Software Engineer


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  3. #53
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    To keep this thread on-topic and civil, please refrain from debating the question of 'is Microsoft evil?' in this topic and try to keep to discussing Firefox and how it does or does not challenge Internet Explorer.

    We have been getting complaints about this thread and we may remove future 'Microsoft is/is not evil' posts in this thread.
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  4. #54
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Sheesh, your logic is unbelievable. What if Microsoft starts making FURNITURE?! Every single furniture business in the world will instantaneously collapse! They could even take over the world!!

    Keep in mind that Microsoft has spent many years positioning themselves as giants in the industry they are in. That doesn't mean that Microsoft has some "golden touch" that will instantly monopolize any other industry they choose. Microsoft didn't become a corporate giant overnight. Programmers certainly have nothing to worry about.
    No one says that they will start working in other industries. Of course there's no reason for them to start making furniture or manufacturing hardware or whatever..

    But they currently hold that "golden touch" for the software development industry. If things go their way - you won't be able to market the software you've just developed, no matter how good it is (talking about software for windows of course). So why would you develop that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Well, that might work nicely for you, but it would make for a completely lousy user experience for the majority of Windows users... who are completely non-technical and just want the computer to do its job. The whole foundation of Windows is user-friendliness.
    It's easy to leave the installation as user-friendly, as it is now. They can give 2 options
    - install with the most common options (recommended)
    - choose stuff you wish to install (advanced)
    IMO that won't make the installation less user-friendly.

    The majority of Windows users aren't at all interested in experimenting with different pieces of software to see which one suits them the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    You're also forgetting that Microsoft is a business, not an open-source organization or a charity. It is neither in their best interests as a company, or in the best interests of their target market, to present every user with a huge list of software vendor choices upon installation. That would be confusing and counter-productive.
    Ok. Let's let them decide everything for us. That would be pretty user-friendly. Users won't have to think at all. Everyone would like that.

    Meanwhile - the prices for other software solutions will raise because they will need to spend more and more on marketing their products.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Hmm... what obligation does Microsoft have to you, to give you the right to use their marketing, success, and popularity for your own gain?

    I run a web design business that I work very hard to market, and the growth of my business over the past year has been due to lots of hard work and creativity. If some random person sent me an email demanding that I give them free ad space on my website, so that they can promote their own web design business, I would definitely laugh at them, just before deleting their email. That's not abuse, it's just common business sense. I'm not in business to promote my competitors.
    And what if your web site's visitors ask you to give them this free space on your web site?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Hmm, does Sony have a community? Does Toyota? Again I think you're misunderstanding that Microsoft is a profit-driven corporation, not an open source organization.
    http://www.toyotanation.com/
    sony-europe.com

    How does SONY know which screens do their users like better? How does TOYOTA know what would their clients like to have in the new auto? All businesses need to interact with their clients before and especially after the sale. And these clients are the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    Well, I'd like to see you start your own business from the ground up, spend years developing your own OS and software suite, market yourself and become hugely successful, and then start offering your competition's products alongside your own
    If my clients need that and ask for that - I would do that. I won't do that if that is a serious threat to my business. The Microsoft universe would not turn upside down if more people start using FF instead of IE while FF is better. Once IE is improved - no one will choose FF during the installation if they know that IE is the perfect choice for them.

    I wouldn't care that everyone is using IE if IE supported the w3c standards . That would open the new broad road for the world's web developers. In some time - that would make the internet a much more interesting space. That would add much more user interactivity and would save a huge load of time to web developers.

    At the moment MS just ignores these new technologies and therefore MS raises obstacles to the improvement of WWW.

    We've got no choice other than just wait for 2007 to come and hope that MS would either seriously rewrite IE, or just give Firefox a way to reach the mass. That's 3 years! And what if they continue ignoring the new technologies and do everything their way - the way they get more money.

    The current Win Xp installations don't even have a flash player. I think that this is the technology which is hard to ignore. Thanks god Macromedia invested enough money to teach almost every user to go and download the thing.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
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  5. #55
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Sorry Tom,

    I've seen your post after I've submitted mine.
    Please remove it if you think it is not appropriate for this thread.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    OfficeOfTheLaw,

    Yes, I read every IE thread on C9. You know, like the ones where someone stomps in "demanding" CSS and PNG support, and then I say "check the Wiki where the developers have already said they know about this need".

    I read them almost daily. Because people post them almost daily. And I respond to them almost daily.

    And I've never heard anyone say "mom and pop don't care about that". Unless you're talking about Keskos. But then, if you read C9 you'd know you should ignore Keskos.

    Hey, you can just read the IE blog if you want to (blogs.msdn.com/ie). It should be fairly obvious to anyone that:

    1. They know what people want
    2. They want to give it to them
    3. They dont' want to just give people what they want, but want to solve issues

    Hell, since you love C9 so much you must have seen the 5 IE team videos where they talked through why these changes weren't easy, how they were trying to solve them, etc.

    Right?

    ....
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  7. #57
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    "Most people will use whatever comes installed on their computer. I talk to people everyday who don't even know what a browser is, much less whether they should consider switching to a better one."

    I completely agree.

    However there is a HUGE exception, that is the more 'advanced' users do not think that IE is the best (if asked for a majority).
    Tech Sites show a MUCH better share for Mozilla's Gecko Engine, about up to 45% and numbers are still rising.


    The average user may browser the web with IE, however the smart one uses the better browser.
    And with the tweaks for Firefox i challenge anyone to say to compete with me on this topic. :>

  8. #58
    Huh? What now? tntcheats's Avatar
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    Ever since I switched to Firefox I'm not moving back. If just to be have it not integrated with the OS.

  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    One factor that should weigh in Firefox's favor is that Microsoft has announced that it will no longer be providing IE patches or updates for older operating systems. See: http://news.com.com/Microsoft+to+sec...3-5378366.html

    In addition Microsoft has very clearly stated that there will be no more stand alone versions of MSIE. Thus if and when there is a "MSIE7" users will only get it if they buy the latest version of Windows whatever that may be.

    This means that anybody who is running Win95, 98, ME, NT or 2000 will not be able to get the latests IE updates including those that came out as part of the recent WinXP SP2 update. As a result if these users want to use a secure web browser and don't want to buy a WinXP upgrade, they will have to switch to an alternative web browser like Firefox.

    Personally, I'd like to thank MSFT for supporting Firefox by giving users another reason to switch.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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  10. #60
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertngo
    IE 7 may not be available for older version of windows
    It may be even worse. Microsoft hinted sometime back that there wouldn't be any more stand-alone versions of IE. Newer versions will come with new Windows only. If that happens, I think that IE's popularity will decrease quite fast as not everyone buys updates of their windows whenever they are available.

    But then I find sometimes that some websites appear quite well in IE & other browsers like Opera or Netscape but they don't look anything but ugly in FireFox!! Seems like a problem, I think!!

    Off Topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    It's easy to leave the installation as user-friendly, as it is now. They can give 2 options
    - install with the most common options (recommended)
    - choose stuff you wish to install (advanced)
    IMO that won't make the installation less user-friendly.
    No, it won't make the installation less user-friendly but I think that instead of saying anything against Microsoft, you should better install some of their softwares yourself, even Windows. All of their softwares have the option of installing or not installing the optional components be it Windows, Office, Visual Studio or anything else. You just have to read carefully all the instructions that are written on the setup screens b'coz if you don't then you have no right to complain that Microsoft doesn't provide this or doesn't provide that!!


    Those who say that Open Source is the way to go, well I'm not against open-source but open-source can't be adopted as a business model if you want to make any profits for writing a piece of software. After all, you can't earn much if your business model is open-source & frankly I don't like people who spring up "Donate" buttons on their websites.
    Open Source is good but like everything, it also has its limitations. The developers work as volunteers & you can't hold anything against them if anything blows up while you can get hold of Microsoft if Windows crashes. One of the reasons why Microsoft supplies patches faster than either Apple(though apple hasn't contributed a byte in open-source) or Linux Distro makers like Novell(SuSe) or Mandrake. B'coz you see Microsoft has to provide patches & make its product secure if it wants to stay in the market & that's their motivation to make a good product but in open-source, usually it doesn't effect the developers if anyone stops using their software for any reason.

    So, as I see it, everything has its use. Open source in its present form is good but to adopt it as the sole business model, it'll be just.... I don't want to think about it.
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  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    But then I find sometimes that some websites appear quite well in IE & other browsers like Opera or Netscape but they don't look anything but ugly in FireFox!! Seems like a problem, I think!!
    This goes back to the tired old story of "webmasters" not making sure they write their code to established HTML & CSS specifications. Bad code renders badly.

    This does create the chicken and egg argument. Why should webmasters code their sites better if they look correct on the browser "everyone" uses? I think the growing interest in alternative web browsers will in time spur more web developers to pay more attention to the specifications. In addition, third party WYSIWYG HTML generators will get better at producing valid code.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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  12. #62
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    This goes back to the tired old story of "webmasters" not making sure they write their code to established HTML & CSS specifications. Bad code renders badly.

    This does create the chicken and egg argument. Why should webmasters code their sites better if they look correct on the browser "everyone" uses? I think the growing interest in alternative web browsers will in time spur more web developers to pay more attention to the specifications. In addition, third party WYSIWYG HTML generators will get better at producing valid code.
    Yeah, I knew I'm going to get that answers but only the experienced guys can understand that. The new guys say "what the heck, my code works alright in my browser & my client's browser, so why should I give a damn". That's their attitude. One of the reasons I hate the present breed of new-comers, most of the time they are arrogant fools who argue about things they know nothing about. One example is my junior who works under me. However I may try to make him code decently with comments & all but he won't listen & comes running when there's a problem he can't sort out, which is the case 99% times. Frankly I've stopped saying anything to make him code better & when he comes on over, I just tell him to scram.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  13. #63
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Hopefully all of the talk about FF and standards will get the newbies into coding properly (i.e. cross-browser and without hacks).

    Off Topic:

    Happy b-day asp_funda. Are you in the US? If so, then today is definietly a big day!

  14. #64
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertngo
    But then I find sometimes that some websites appear quite well in IE & other browsers like Opera or Netscape but they don't look anything but ugly in FireFox!! Seems like a problem, I think!!
    That's my biggest problem with using Firefox exclusively -- mangled looking (sometimes just plain unusable) websites everywhere. I don't blame Firefox, I just blame web designers for not producing cross-browser-friendly code. I expect that the rise in Firefox's popularity will force web designers to be a bit more responsible in their coding.
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  15. #65
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Personally I use the mangledness (is that a word?) of a webpage as a litmus test--especially with tech sites. The more mangled the page, the more amateurish and thus less authoritative the site.

    It is so easy to code right once one takes the time to learn new habits that I look at mangled pages as a sure sign of laziness or ignorance.

    For the "newbies" out there the easiest way to make your pages look right in all browsers is to develop your site using Firefox and validating your code using the "Web Developer" extension for Firefox as you go. Only use MSIE to do spot checks. Using this method, you will end up with very few browser specific issues and when you do, you can almost be certain that they are due to bugs in IE.
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  16. #66
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    One of the reasons why Microsoft supplies patches faster than either Apple(though apple hasn't contributed a byte in open-source)
    Apple has contributed code back to KDE from Safari.
    http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/86

  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Hopefully all of the talk about FF and standards will get the newbies into coding properly (i.e. cross-browser and without hacks).
    Yeah, hopefully!!

    Off Topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Happy b-day asp_funda. Are you in the US? If so, then today is definietly a big day!
    Thanks & no, I'm not in US & its already 24th here, so my b-day has passed. But thanks nevertheless.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  18. #68
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    Apple has contributed code back to KDE from Safari.
    http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/86
    What Apple has done(if I read correctly) is that they've fixed & added to KDE's code while working on their Safari. Its like you take an open-source software & fix some bugs in it to make it work better for you. Almost all of us do that. So in a way Microsoft also has contributed to open-source when they support the GotDotNet projects & they also released an MSI installer creator software at SourceForge.
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  19. #69
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    What Apple has done(if I read correctly) is that they've fixed & added to KDE's code while working on their Safari.
    Yes, but they also contributed those changes back into Konqueror. The only thing that Apple hasn't open-sourced when it comes to Safari is its UI.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Guru Mook-Jon's Avatar
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    I'm a HUGE fan of FireFox, but when it comes down to it, only really web savvy and tech savvy people are into FireFox. For FireFox to really start gaining a piece of the pie, I think they should start talking to sysadmins at Universities and making the default browsers in schools FireFox and not IE. That "Google Recommends FireFox" was an interesting idea, but I doubt it'll happen. IE is dominant, and will remain so for a long time, but someday they will be overrun, and imo Mozilla will take over the show.

  21. #71
    ********* Streaker Lister14's Avatar
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    well, at work EVERYONE is using firefox (noia 2 extreme theme & mouse gestures extension)... as i have installed them and removed all kind of llinks relating to ie

    ha ha

    now, soon firefox will reign the world
    roy.lu
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  22. #72
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    I quoted the wrong post. The one above was blatently against what mmj requested.

  23. #73
    SQL Consultant gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    here's a great post: Why I don't recommend Firefox

    techies love it, but it scares the cr@p out of the ordinary surfer

    don't miss the part about all the gobbledegook on the firefox home page
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    here's a great post: Why I don't recommend Firefox

    techies love it, but it scares the cr@p out of the ordinary surfer

    don't miss the part about all the gobbledegook on the firefox home page
    That article's ridiculous. The author obviously thinks the average person is really really stupid. If the average person can figure out how to drive a car, talk on the phone, turn on their computer, use a microwave, etc. then they can use Firefox. Creating a "Go" button plugin would be trivial too. Sheesh.

  25. #75
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    here's a great post: Why I don't recommend Firefox

    techies love it, but it scares the cr@p out of the ordinary surfer

    don't miss the part about all the gobbledegook on the firefox home page
    I agree with that entry 100%.. It is the same reason I won't recommend Firefox.

    I already have my mother calling 15 times a day if she gets a spam email thinking it is a virus, I don't need another 15 calls a day if I try to replace AOL for her. I mean even though she has DSL through another company, she still thinks that she needs to run the AOL application to access the Internet. She gets shocked when I open the Run box and type in iexplore and get a web browser and immediate access to the Internet on her computer.
    Wayne Luke
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