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  1. #26
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficeOfTheLaw
    In my opinion, Firefox still has alot to do to catch up with IE.

    For starters, firefox needs to better support w3c standards and CSS... that's why all these sites turn it away or look messed up when the pages are made with Frontpage.

    Also, one desirable feature that firefox needs is to be more interwined with the operating system a bit. I know this may be difficult, but I'd love to use firefox to manage files on my linux box, and it would be even better if it took the operating system down with it when it crashes.

    Finally, it really really needs ActiveX support, as the future of the web will use ActiveX, it's a must have. Also the ability to parse vbscript would be nice, but unfortunately it seems that the Mozilla team just can't grok vbscript, which is a very clean, powerful client side scripting language.

    Automatic download, installation, and execution of programs would be nice too... I would switch to firefox, but it doesnt have any of the great enhancements like IE has like gator, CoolWebSearch, etc.

  2. #27
    l 0 l silver trophybronze trophy lo0ol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    The fact the MS tries to Monopolize the web browser market decreases Microsoft reputation in my eyes.
    Heehee. What else are they supposed to be doing?

  3. #28
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficeOfTheLaw
    In my opinion, Firefox still has alot to do to catch up with IE.

    For starters, firefox needs to better support w3c standards and CSS... that's why all these sites turn it away or look messed up when the pages are made with Frontpage.

    Also, one desirable feature that firefox needs is to be more interwined with the operating system a bit. I know this may be difficult, but I'd love to use firefox to manage files on my linux box, and it would be even better if it took the operating system down with it when it crashes.

    Finally, it really really needs ActiveX support, as the future of the web will use ActiveX, it's a must have. Also the ability to parse vbscript would be nice, but unfortunately it seems that the Mozilla team just can't grok vbscript, which is a very clean, powerful client side scripting language.

    Automatic download, installation, and execution of programs would be nice too... I would switch to firefox, but it doesnt have any of the great enhancements like IE has like gator, CoolWebSearch, etc.
    Well said!

  4. #29
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficeOfTheLaw
    In my opinion, Firefox still has alot to do to catch up with IE.

    For starters, firefox needs to better support w3c standards and CSS... that's why all these sites turn it away or look messed up when the pages are made with Frontpage.

    Also, one desirable feature that firefox needs is to be more interwined with the operating system a bit. I know this may be difficult, but I'd love to use firefox to manage files on my linux box, and it would be even better if it took the operating system down with it when it crashes.

    Finally, it really really needs ActiveX support, as the future of the web will use ActiveX, it's a must have. Also the ability to parse vbscript would be nice, but unfortunately it seems that the Mozilla team just can't grok vbscript, which is a very clean, powerful client side scripting language.

    Automatic download, installation, and execution of programs would be nice too... I would switch to firefox, but it doesnt have any of the great enhancements like IE has like gator, CoolWebSearch, etc.
    Hah, frontpage is the opposite of w3c standards, hmm, now I wonder why it looks messed up in in Firefox, and not Ie? Now let's actually give this some thought. First, look on your frontpage cd and tell where it says Firefox and does not say Ie? Second, why would anyone use frontpage to create a website!
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  5. #30
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codyrockx
    Hah, frontpage is the opposite of w3c standards, hmm, now I wonder why it looks messed up in in Firefox, and not Ie? Now let's actually give this some thought. First, look on your frontpage cd and tell where it says Firefox and does not say Ie? Second, why would anyone use frontpage to create a website!
    I think your sarcasm detector is broken today.

  6. #31
    Romans 12:2 codyrockx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    I think your sarcasm detector is broken today.
    Something like this is just easier to vent on than other things in life.
    Codyrobert.com - Designer and Developer

  7. #32
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp


    Jan 2004: IE 84.1%, Mozilla 8.2%

    Mar 2004: IE 82.8%, Mozilla 9.6%

    June 2004: IE 80.7%, Mozilla 11.8%

    September 2004: IE 76% Mozilla 16.6%

    These statistics are pretty compelling. Mozilla has doubled its market share in 8 months, while IE has dropped by more than 10% in the same time.

    Here's a graph (via adot's notblog):
    http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/006444.html

    He includes Netscape 7 in the 'Mozilla' statistics, which I didn't (above).
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  8. #33
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Those stats are for one website. Says so right there on that page. Among Technical Users and Webgeeks, Firefox has gained a lot of users while fewer people use IE. What about the other 90% of Windows Users?

    Very few people really care what software they use, they use what their boss or IT directors tell them to us or install on their PCs. 45 Million consumers in the United States use AOL because it is simple for them. Downloading and installing Firefox is not simple for the end user. Even the owner of Netscape doesn't recommend their own browser.

    Frankly, using the idea that Microsoft distributes a browser with their OS is junk. Apple distributes a browser, Linux Companies distribute dozens, Sun distributes a browser with their OS and so forth. The web browser needs to be a valid part of the OS in order for computing to continue to advance.

    Use whatever browser you want is all I say. Personally, I couldn't care less what browser anyone uses it is their choice.
    Wayne Luke
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  9. #34
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    That conclusion is a little misleading Tom. Maybe Mozilla's market share has doubled in 8 months on w3schools.com, which is a site aimed at webmasters. On a site with a more general topic focus you probably won't see that stark of a difference.

  10. #35
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    Personally, I couldn't care less what browser anyone uses it is their choice.
    And that's the key. It's a choice. User preference.

    Way to be, Wayne. Way to be.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  11. #36
    l 0 l silver trophybronze trophy lo0ol's Avatar
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    Actually I do care. I want everyone to use Firefox. It's easier from a design standpoint.

  12. #37
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    That conclusion is a little misleading Tom. Maybe Mozilla's market share has doubled in 8 months on w3schools.com
    I didn't mean it to be misleading. I gave statistics for browser usage that I obtained from w3schools.com and did not pretend they came from elsewhere.
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  13. #38
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lo0ol
    Actually I do care. I want everyone to use Firefox. It's easier from a design standpoint.
    Heh. Designing for one browser would be nice.
    Danielion
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  14. #39
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Even though the w3schools stats are certainly biased towards techies/webmasters, it is a positive sign for Firefox as techies are the "early adopters" and often, but not always, show what the trends in tech will be. Also, recents stats that represents a combination of a variety of sites from different genres all conclusively point to gecko based browsers making significant gains on IE and IE losing ground as a whole. Granted IE still has, and will for some time, a signifcant share of the browser market. But there is a reason for anti-MS (for better or worse) and pro-choice (for lack of a better word) browser enthusiasts to be optimistic.

    Personally, I'd like to see gecko-based browsers gain a significant portion of the browser market. It would force MS to be more inovative and maybe even offer IE as a standalone product again instead of slacking on innovation and development like they did in IE 6 (they could have supported a lot more CSS and DOM but simply chose not to. Imagine the sites we could build if MS tried just a little bit harder). Competition always benefits the consumer. Even if the product is free.

  15. #40
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    Ah I remember when browsers cost money and netscape was the dominant browser. But of course Microsoft started distributing their browser for free and as a part of their OS and the browser usage distribution radically changed. Thats simply creating a browser monopoly from the ground up...

    Yes techies adopt new technologies and most reccomend those technologies (if they are good) to their clients.

    Eventually word of mouth and the value of the product will cauase it to spread like a virus through the net (bad analogy :P ) and a shift occurs.

    I'm a happy Firefox and Thunderbird user. IMO both are far ahead of outlook and IE. While they are better products I will keep using them. If MS drastically re-write IE I might switch back, but not till then

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    With web browsers, up until recently no one has ever needed to know anything but IE -- and since that already comes installed on Windows PCs, all the thinking has already been done for them.
    I remember quite clearly the days when the market share was slip between Netscape and IE. I recall reading articles about the millions spent to ensure that websites were compatible on both browsers. When I started using the internet, I was using Mosaic. When I first switched to Netscape, IE absolutely sucked. A few versions later, IE was unquestionably better.

    Over a year an a half ago I switched to Firefox (which has gone through about 3 different names.) At first I just used firefox when IE would crash. Quickly I switched over and now exclusively use firefox except when testing pages and on rare occasions. For example, I don't have flash installed with firefox.

    Most firefox users dumped IE due to invasive advertising such as spyware and pop-ups. While I do believe that firefox will become less-effective in this reguard as its popularity increases, due to other factors I believe it will have an advantage until the guys over at Microsoft change their priorities.

    I'm happy firefox is doing well. When Netscape lossed its market dominance I thought the browser wars where over forever. As we are now seeing, browser wars part II is beginning. Microsoft better get ready.

  17. #42
    Huh? What now? tntcheats's Avatar
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    I doubt that Google will be of much help to Mozilla. Especially since they're looking like they're going to make their own browser (gbrowser.com registered)

    The least it could do is help crush Microsoft's market share and increase the amount of browsers with valid rendering.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutter
    I'm happy firefox is doing well. When Netscape lossed its market dominance I thought the browser wars where over forever. As we are now seeing, browser wars part II is beginning. Microsoft better get ready.
    Yeah, I agree. My biggest problem with using Firefox exclusively isn't Firefox itself, but the fact that a lot of web designers aren't making their sites Firefox-friendly yet, and it made for a less enjoyable browsing experience (in my case).

    But I'm looking forward to Firefox's growth in popularity, things are getting very interesting.
    Danielion
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psn
    remember Microsoft dont inovate they copy/steal/buy out
    Yeah & so do others, as it happens, more than half the features in present day Linux were copied from Windows, they weren't brainstormed & dear old Apple is so innovative that they take FreeBSD, beautify its interface, add some tit bits & sell it as their OS-X.
    Coming to the software front, Macromedia bought FutureWave who made FutureSplash whose present day avatar is FlashMX 2004. And there are lots of other similar cases, so why blame only Microsoft, why not every damn software company?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    When people install MS Windows - they install an operating system. They don't install a browser, but MS installs their browser along with that operating system - even without asking "Do you really really want to use our piece of ... and call it 'the internet', or maybe you'd prefer to install a browser from other vendors?"
    Yeah, yeah, & they might as well tell the users that there are other choices for OSes too & people should look at them also, just like Vinnie said. I don't think Apple asks you before installing Safari with Mac & Linux certainly doesn't ask you before installing Mozilla(atleast not RedHat, Mandrake, SuSe, which I've installed & haven't got any option of installing Mozilla or not).
    If IE bothers you so, simply uninstall it after Windows installed. There are so many damn browsers that if Microsoft starts keeping track of them, they'll go nuts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    Let's imagine what happens if Microsoft develops a product similar to photoshop and includes it into MS Windows installation as a replacement to MS Paint (and raises the price of the whole Windows package). My bet is that Adobe Photoshop will either go down soon after that or get bought by microsoft.
    Well, that's what business is. If you can't keep up with competition, you are not good enough to be running that business. And if Microsoft creates an alternative to Photoshop & bundles it with Windows, then I think that even after a price rise, the cost of windows wouldn't be as high as that of Photoshop CS, $649. Whereas WindowsXP is just around $200.

    I just hope that you don't start your own business Tim or you'd go down making losses!!



    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Even though the w3schools stats are certainly biased towards techies/webmasters, it is a positive sign for Firefox as techies are the "early adopters"
    Techies are almost always the first adopters of new tech. Linux wasn't first adopted by Home users & only techies had the first computers or internet for that matter.
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Guru momos's Avatar
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    This is turning to a Microsoft against the world discussion...

    Back to the topic:
    IE used to be a very good browser in comparison to others, but screwed it up by stopping further development at one point. Now I would say Firefox is superior (espesially when it comes to security and standards compliance). But there might be a day that IE is better again... It's actually only due to these competitions that occur, that we get big waves of evolution!

  21. #46
    SitePoint Member norman_76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    Yeah & so do others, as it happens, more than half the features in present day Linux were copied from Windows, they weren't brainstormed & dear old Apple is so innovative that they take FreeBSD, beautify its interface, add some tit bits & sell it as their OS-X.
    I agree. I dont know y everyone is after Microsoft, after all copying and stealing, they produce their own products and market them on their own and above all people use them and have no complaints.

    Seems everyone wants to be at height where Microsoft or Gates is
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  22. #47
    SitePoint Enthusiast kajax101's Avatar
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    One issue is that people like variety, that's why I think a lot of people, myself included, are looking at other options, other software, other browsers, even other office suite software.

    i think there are a lot of ideological reasons why FireFox and the whole open-source movement are very healthy for the internet and computing in general.

    How would we feel if we had to buy all our food, clothes, cars etc from one sole vendor? Well the world of the internet and the PC is like that, Microsoft has a huge monopoly if you compare to other industries. Healthy competition is good, I'd like to see more browsers like opera, firefox gain prominence this provides people with a healthy variety of tools that best fit their needs.

    I personally got sick of I.E. and all the spy wear and ad wear that was downloaded through it, so about a year ago i downloaded FX, I haven't looked back and with the latest update, this browser just rules in my personal opinion.

  23. #48
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    Yeah & so do others, as it happens, more than half the features in present day Linux were copied from Windows, they weren't brainstormed & dear old Apple is so innovative that they take FreeBSD, beautify its interface, add some tit bits & sell it as their OS-X.
    Coming to the software front, Macromedia bought FutureWave who made FutureSplash whose present day avatar is FlashMX 2004. And there are lots of other similar cases, so why blame only Microsoft, why not every damn software company?
    Why? Cos thats how Microsoft Operates. DOS they bought, bought the IE from some company im sure someone will give me the name. and a ton of other things. Well Linux itself hasnt copied a thing from Windows the packages that are made for Linux have, as well as Apple.

  24. #49
    eigo hanasemasu ka? Yes. =) ZuulJin's Avatar
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    If IE 7 comes out supporting the w3c standards perfectly, having tabbed browsing, pop-up/ad blocking, and a fancy favorites manager... then there isn't any reason to choose Firefox over IE. Especially considering the amount of integration with the OS that IE can bring by simply being developed by MS. Although, Firefox is a cool name, and I love the icon.

    Also... it's human to copy others. It's simply what we do. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. We take what works and make it better. That's how we advance. From the day we're born, we're learning things that others have already learned and wrote into some form of media for us to learn from. We save time by learning that way, instead of starting from scratch for all our knowledge.

    Get over it, everyone copies the good stuff. It's how everything advances.
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  25. #50
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psn
    Why? Cos thats how Microsoft Operates. DOS they bought, bought the IE from some company im sure someone will give me the name. and a ton of other things. Well Linux itself hasnt copied a thing from Windows the packages that are made for Linux have, as well as Apple.
    IE wasn't "bought". They took the Mosaic source code and modified it to produce IE. Same thing Netscape did up until version 4.


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