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  1. #1
    SitePoint Member robertngo's Avatar
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    can firefox challege IE

    In just six day the number of download for firefox have pass the one million download mile stone, will firefox be able to get mainstream acceptance and challege the dominance the IE? What is ur opinion?

  2. #2
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    It may challenge but while Windows is the dominant OS, IE will have fairly large market share.

  3. #3
    Hi iKwak's Avatar
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    Looking at the webstats for the past 3 months, I.E. has a real high number compared to Firefox.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Firefox already challenges IE.
    As time passes IE stats go down and Firefox go up....

    One day I thought.... - Maybe some Firefox lover would like to donate and pay google for running a "Google recommeds: Mozilla Firefox" .. or something like that .. banner?

    If Microsoft are going to compete with google on the search engine stage... That'd be pretty cool from google to sh!t into Gate's garden with such a promotion of Firefox.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  5. #5
    l º 0 º l silver trophybronze trophy lo0ol's Avatar
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    I definately think Firefox's market share will go up dramatically from here... but as to whether or not they'll reach a majority is still up in the air. Right now I'd be persuaded to say no.
    .
    Zach Holman
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  6. #6
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    That also depends on what would be introduced in IE 7
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    That also depends on what would be introduced in IE 7
    everything that Mozilla/Gecko Browsers have remember Microsoft dont inovate they copy/steal/buy out

  8. #8
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psn
    everything that Mozilla/Gecko Browsers have remember Microsoft dont inovate they copy/steal/buy out
    Damn right.

    Well.. If they really introduce everything that the latest Mozilla browsers have - no one would be able to compete with IE.

    But I'm pretty sure they won't be able to copy everything from Mozilla. They'd have to rewrite IE completely and forget about all that old IE stuff. The first thing they need to do is make sure that all pages that are shown ok in Mozilla would be shown ok in IE 7.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Most people will use whatever comes installed on their computer. I talk to people everyday who don't even know what a browser is, much less whether they should consider switching to a better one.

    The internet is still young enough that the majority of its users aren't very savvy yet. As time goes by and people become more internet savvy, choosing a browser may become as common sense as choosing a cell phone service or a clothing brand.

    Off topic:

    I gave Firefox a try, but after a few months I grew tired of viewing mangled-looking websites (like my bank's), not even being able to view some sites at all, and experiencing reduced functionality in other sites. However, I love Thunderbird and will continue using it for email, instead of Outlook Express.
    Danielion
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  10. #10
    l º 0 º l silver trophybronze trophy lo0ol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    I gave Firefox a try, but after a few months I grew tired of viewing mangled-looking websites (like my bank's), not even being able to view some sites at all, and experiencing reduced functionality in other sites. However, I love Thunderbird and will continue using it for email, instead of Outlook Express.
    I've been using it for like half a year and I really haven't come to any huge problems. The only problems I have is WindowsUpdate and the 1-2 sites that ActiveX are required. Besides that I've just seen some glitchy code, but nothing that really hampers the site. My banks are all perfectly fine in Firefox.

    And I love Thunderbird. And Sunbird.
    .
    Zach Holman
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  11. #11
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    That also depends on what would be introduced in IE 7
    The features that IE have to offer doesn't even come into the equation for the most part. Your average person buys a computer, more than 95% (guess) of personal computers come with a recent version of Windows installed. Therefore IE is built-in and the default web browser, most users will never even consider using something else. I've tried to convert IE users to Firefox and had them ask me what a web browser was, IE is "the internet" to a lot of people and that will never change while Windows is the dominant OS and I can't see that changing any time soon.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    I've tried to convert IE users to Firefox and had them ask me what a web browser was, IE is "the internet" to a lot of people and that will never change while Windows is the dominant OS and I can't see that changing any time soon.
    That's why I hate IE.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
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  13. #13
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    That's not a reason. I don't hate Microsoft and I wish that people who "did" provided valid reasons for doing so, backed up with a valid argument...

  14. #14
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    That's not a reason. I don't hate Microsoft and I wish that people who "did" provided valid reasons for doing so, backed up with a valid argument...
    The reason why I hate Microsoft is their software monopoly.

    Why do people think that IE is "the internet" - cuz when they turn on their pc for the first time - IE is the only browser they would use. No one gives them a chance to select a browser they want to use.

    The same happens with outlook being the only email client and other software that comes along with windows suite.

    I'd stop hating Microsoft if they just ask people "which browser you would like to use for browsing the internet?" - and provide a number of choices - all with descriptions and unique features.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  15. #15
    ********* Wizard silver trophy Cam's Avatar
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    But why would they do that? If you created your own operating system to sell, in the installer would you put a message like this?
    Wait up people, are you sure you want to install MyOS? There are plenty of other choices such as Windows, Linux and BSD, mine can be pretty cool but I just wanted to let you know there are choices!
    Microsoft have built up a corporation and they do what all other corporations and businesses do, try to make money.

  16. #16
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Microsoft is competetive. They're running a business!

    Sometimes people expect Microsoft to behave like Open Source. They're a business. They're in this to make money, like any business. A business that sends their customers elsewhere is a stupid business.

    If you want to educate others, you can. A little while ago, I introduced my parents to Firefox. My mom uses it now all the time. Before she used IE because it was there, and never thought twice. I showed her Firefox, and some of the features it had that made it easier for her. She uses it almost exclusively now.

    But don't hate Microsoft because they've used a little business sense. Are you in direct competition with them, yourself?
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  17. #17
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaesthesiac
    The internet is still young enough that the majority of its users aren't very savvy yet. As time goes by and people become more internet savvy
    I think the trend has gone the other way for the last 10 years. The internet was mostly a geeky affair back in '94-95, so browser competition was much better back then. The more people you involve in this, the more complacent they become and the harder it is to change. People won't "get more savvy" because the savvy people are already online. I bet that the more people you bring onto the web, the less savvy each successive person is on average.

  18. #18
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lo0ol
    I never understood the desire to put a dollar sign in their name anyway. It's not like Apple or Google (the "saints" of technology) are above the greed of capitalism. And that's a good thing.
    Appl€ and Googl€ will never beat £inux.

    See, currency in names are fun!

  19. #19
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    But why would they do that? If you created your own operating system to sell, in the installer would you put a message like this?
    Microsoft have built up a corporation and they do what all other corporations and businesses do, try to make money.
    When people install MS Windows - they install an operating system. They don't install a browser, but MS installs their browser along with that operating system - even without asking "Do you really really want to use our piece of ... and call it 'the internet', or maybe you'd prefer to install a browser from other vendors?"

    Well... Of course Microsoft is running a business and this question would lower the number of people using MS IE, but... Every coin has a flip side - this question could improve Microsoft reputation in the eyes of people who do know what does a word 'browser' mean.. They could show their customers that they respect their competitors and are not going to Monopolize the whole PC software market. And as a result this could bring MS more sales.

    The fact the MS tries to Monopolize the web browser market decreases Microsoft reputation in my eyes.

    At least I'm proud that my mom calls Firefox 'the internet' .
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
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  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard jax502's Avatar
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    With all the news about IE's security holes, the number of people becoming aware of Firefox is increasing but since Microsoft is so dominant especially in marketing their products. IE still has the upper hand. Also, most new computers come with IE already installed that's why most people don't go to the trouble of downloading another browser. Most of my friends don't even know about Firefox. But to answer your question: Yes I think Firefox will eventually surpass IE's popularity. If Firefox will come pre-installed in every new system, this will be a huge step.

    I guess the question is, can IE match Firefox's quality? Right now, I think Firefox has surpassed IE in terms of performance and quality. Firefox has been my default browser for a while now.
    jax502

  21. #21
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Welcome to SitePoint Tim. Ready for a good ol' fashion whoopin'?

    A few points of technicality, just to put things in perspective:

    1. Microsoft was never declared a monopoly, but of having monopolistic practices. Now that it's desktop share is just about under 90%, even the monopoly label certain people attach doesn't stand.

    2. Would you have Microsoft ask about every piece of software? The TCP/IP stack, for instance (this used to be a paid component)? Which ones... Only the ones where there are others developing such software?

    If so, what other companies do this. In order for them to be abusing the monopoly power, they need to be doing something abusive. What's abuse? Let's start with doing something beyond what every other competitor is doing, as a starting point.

    3. Giving up on IE and recommending other browsers would not change certain people's views. They asked for open API's. Microsoft gave them .NET and the new Longhorn Pillars. They asked for open sourcing of at least a few small products. Microsoft gave them WiX and a half dozen other projects, to get their feet wet. They asked for renewed IE development and a focus on security. Microsoft gave them that as well.

    In reality the list goes on and on as to what Microsoft has done that they'd never do.

    4. You're gonna need to run the numbers on this one. How would Microsoft giving more browser choices increase sales of Windows? Will people who have never bought a computer buy it because FireFox is an option? Will Linux folk? Will Mac users?

    So, now that the basic stuff is out of the way, let's go for a run with the fun stuff.

    According to Secunia (http://secunia.com/):

    IE vulnerabilities: 19 of 60 unpatched. All but 1 of these are patched in XP SP2.
    FireFox: 2 of 13 unpatched.

    I mean, I could go on... And on... And on...

    =========

    So, will FireFox be the majority browser? My hope is that the best browser will be. Currently, to me, that is FireFox. There'll be some interesting dynamics if it happens, and I sure as hell hope they improve security from XUL... But yeah, FireFox has the better renderer and the better customizability and the better "features" right now.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  22. #22
    SitePoint Addict Synaesthesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Rogovets
    That's why I hate IE.
    Well, I think it's just trendy to hate IE. It's easy to jump on the MICRO$OFT IS TEH SUX0RZ bandwagon. This is just how people react to big corporate giants, especially when everyone else is doing it. Most people are just recycling other people's opinions. Boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    I bet that the more people you bring onto the web, the less savvy each successive person is on average.
    Well, on AOL maybe I just think the internet is going through its own natural stages of growth. But I disagree with you... 10 years ago, most people didn't even know what email was. Today, everyone knows what it is. 8 years ago, most people didn't know what a search engine was. Just 4 years ago, most people had never heard of Google. People are learning their way around, it just isn't an instantaneous process.

    With web browsers, up until recently no one has ever needed to know anything but IE -- and since that already comes installed on Windows PCs, all the thinking has already been done for them. But, if new browsers (like Firefox) make their appearance, and people begin learning the concept of "Browser A vs. Browser B", then they will eventually be able to make a more intelligent decision about their browsing experience. You just have to give it time.

    20 years from now, everyone will know what a browser is, there will be lots more of them and we'll probably see them in television commercials.
    Danielion
    Imagine a world without hypothetical scenarios...

  23. #23
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    Thanks for the welcomes and thanks for the post, Jeremy.
    Very good points. Very interesting to read.

    If you don't mind - I would quote your words here - for the reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    1. Microsoft was never declared a monopoly, but of having monopolistic practices. Now that it's desktop share is just about under 90%, even the monopoly label certain people attach doesn't stand.
    1. Let's use some imagination. If someone offered Microsoft to completely monopolize the whole software market without carrying any responsibilities for that... Would they agree? Who knows.. Maybe some conscience would wake up, maybe not. My bet - they'd agree without even giving this a thought.

    Let's imagine what happens if Microsoft develops a product similar to photoshop and includes it into MS Windows installation as a replacement to MS Paint (and raises the price of the whole Windows package). My bet is that Adobe Photoshop will either go down soon after that or get bought by microsoft.

    What if the same thing happens to just about every piece of good software we use now? A programmer would not be a programmer if he doesn't work for Microsoft? That's terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    2. Would you have Microsoft ask about every piece of software? The TCP/IP stack, for instance (this used to be a paid component)? Which ones... Only the ones where there are others developing such software?

    If so, what other companies do this. In order for them to be abusing the monopoly power, they need to be doing something abusive. What's abuse? Let's start with doing something beyond what every other competitor is doing, as a starting point.
    2. In a perfect world - I would love Windows installations to prompt me - which software I wish to install if there are some other alternatives to MS software (even if those other alternatives are much worse then MS one... Maybe I just want to study how does that alternative work and write a report on it, then - replace it with the better one from MS). This is my PC and I am the one who will work with the OS being installed. You can run the installations with the default options and without any prompts, but just please give me a chance to refuse the defaults and choose myself. Maybe I need that.

    I'm not quite sure what a TCP/IP stack is, but sounds like this software should be a part of a modern Microsoft suite anyway.. I don't think there is any competition on the market of TCP/IP stack software for OS Windows. And if the OS needs it - then it should be a part of the OS. And its Linux alternative should be a part of any Linux distribution.

    But..... what if a new TCP/IP Stack algo comes into my mind... I start developing it - and in the end I have a better TCP/IP stack software then the one Microsoft includes into the Win package. What if all I want is to bring it to the world? I won't be able to do that even if I give it away for free. The only way to let people use my software would be to sell it to Microsoft.. If I don't want to sell it - that's my problem, not theirs. I would write an email to Microsoft and ask them to let people choose which TCP/IP stack software they prefer to use. At the moment I guess I'd receive a reply containing a bunch of laughs on me. I would consider that an abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    3. Giving up on IE and recommending other browsers would not change certain people's views. They asked for open API's. Microsoft gave them .NET and the new Longhorn Pillars. They asked for open sourcing of at least a few small products. Microsoft gave them WiX and a half dozen other projects, to get their feet wet. They asked for renewed IE development and a focus on security. Microsoft gave them that as well.

    In reality the list goes on and on as to what Microsoft has done that they'd never do.
    3. Microsoft, like all other software development companies, always need to improve their products. Microsoft also needs a community. And when the community needs something from Microsoft - they should give it a thought and possibly develop that.

    If some guys use the Open codes MS provided and develop something new - MS would either buy them or steal their idea and develop the same thing. In both cases - MS wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    4. You're gonna need to run the numbers on this one. How would Microsoft giving more browser choices increase sales of Windows? Will people who have never bought a computer buy it because FireFox is an option? Will Linux folk? Will Mac users?
    4. I don't have economic education and I can't estimate the numbers. If I was a business development expert at Microsoft - I would calculate that... And I'm pretty sure they already did.

    But - if an option to use Firefox (or Opera, or others..) instead of IE for web browsing would appear in Longhorn release - I would consider that a great step from Microsoft. My opinion about this company would raise up and I would love to say "Microsoft is a great example of a company that doesn't raise obstacles to developers of any software solutions and even encourages them and helps them with promoting their software". And if I have a chance - I would make sure that these words reach millions of people. That would surely increase MS reputation.

    Windows is not the only thing MS is selling. An increase of MS reputation could result in an increase of MS .NET Server sales.. Or sales of other software solutions developed by MS.... Or maybe people even start searching through msn search - just cuz they admire Microsoft and like the way MS is doing it's business.


    I also hope that the best browser would be the majority browser. Whether it is IE, or Opera, or Firefox, or something not born yet. This is called a healthy competition. I cannot call the current browser market a healthy competition.

    If switching from Firefox to IE would make my life easier one day - I would switch.

    I hope I won't be forced to do that just because I no longer have a choice.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!

  24. #24
    SitePoint Guru OfficeOfTheLaw's Avatar
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    In my opinion, Firefox still has alot to do to catch up with IE.

    For starters, firefox needs to better support w3c standards and CSS... that's why all these sites turn it away or look messed up when the pages are made with Frontpage.

    Also, one desirable feature that firefox needs is to be more interwined with the operating system a bit. I know this may be difficult, but I'd love to use firefox to manage files on my linux box, and it would be even better if it took the operating system down with it when it crashes.

    Finally, it really really needs ActiveX support, as the future of the web will use ActiveX, it's a must have. Also the ability to parse vbscript would be nice, but unfortunately it seems that the Mozilla team just can't grok vbscript, which is a very clean, powerful client side scripting language.

    Automatic download, installation, and execution of programs would be nice too... I would switch to firefox, but it doesnt have any of the great enhancements like IE has like gator, CoolWebSearch, etc.

    James Carr, Software Engineer


    assertEquals(newXPJob, you.ask(officeOfTheLaw));

  25. #25
    SitePoint Addict Tim_Rogovets's Avatar
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    What a great post, OfficeOfTheLaw.

    Thanks for that.
    CEO of Grandiz! - a team based in Odessa, Ukraine.
    Designing and developing sophisticated web apps on CodeIgniter!


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