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  1. #26
    Steve Benjamins tnrstudios's Avatar
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    I think stymiee is right. Hes not saying SEO is bad he's just pointing out that quality has the best long-term benefits; and that makes total sence because SE's will always try to get quality #1.

  2. #27
    Non-Member Gator99's Avatar
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    Have a forum or blog about absolutely nothing and mention the keyword once in a kazillion pages ... your bound to be #1.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator99
    Have a forum or blog about absolutely nothing and mention the keyword once in a kazillion pages ... your bound to be #1.
    That's stuffing.

    If you have no reason for a keyword to be on the page other than it being a keyword, it's better not to have it.

  4. #29
    Aussie Icon ozgression's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    No one argues that doing seo and promoting your site is helpful. But they're meaningless in the long run unless your site is a quality site to begin with. That's the whole point we're getting at.
    I agree with your point 100%. It is ALOT easier to get links/traffic if you have something that people actually want to link to/visit.

  5. #30
    Non-Member Gator99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paladin
    That's stuffing.

    If you have no reason for a keyword to be on the page other than it being a keyword, it's better not to have it.
    That's the opposite of stuffing, read the post ... duh. That's the point, google went too a far extreme to prevent "stuffing" so what I posted holds true. I've noticed google doesnt match on exact phrases anymore if you type in anything over 2 words you get garbage.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Addict
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator99
    That's the opposite of stuffing, read the post ... duh.
    Yep my bad. I used to post an another forum where stuffing/spamming was suggested so many times that I got used to recognizing it instantly.

    That technique could work, but it seems like it would only be feasible on blog type sites. And if it's a blog about nothing the site probably wouldn't be worth much even if it did rank well (except maybe to link to another site).

  7. #32
    SitePoint Zealot bobmutch's Avatar
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    stymiee: The thread says "The Top ways to get a High Ranking" that is the subject. Then we have people that are saying content content content. As I have noted it is not only optimizing the site, it is a long list of things. It get your site to do the best you have to do all of them. 1. Site design, 2. Correct navagation 3. SEO 4. Content 5. Marketing.
    But what this thread is about is how to rank high. Not about keeping the customer once they get on the site, not about bringing the customer back, not about converting the customer into a sale.
    It is about how to get high rankings on the search engines.
    It seems some people here thing that good content is all you need to do. Well that is one of the things. You have to do all of them to have a good site and to be successful.
    Make a site worthy of being ranked highly by writing good content is NOT the way to get high rankings. Good content has to do with bringing people back, and in the long run of course if you are an authoritative site everyone will link to you and the links will bring you high ranking.
    But lets face it not everyone will become an authoritative site. So if you are not in that 0.0001% than can creative an authoritative site what do you do to get ranking. You optimize your site. You tweek the on-page stuff, you buy, beg, borrow and trade links. You write articles that are tweeked for the keywords you think you can rank on. That gets you traffic. Not content!

  8. #33
    SitePoint Addict Brak's Avatar
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    Targeted text links.

    For google, that's all that seems to matter anymore. I rank for some keywords that aren't mentioned anywhere in my site, but are in linked anchor text.
    Studio Rockstar's Blog - A journey to quitting the dayjob.

  9. #34
    Non-Member rebelbagwan's Avatar
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    Most relevant, best content is the ideal situation and works for non commercial sites in non commercial searches , but in highly commercial search terms often ( not always ) this is no longer ( and may well have never been ) the case .

    I could list some commercial searches with several million listings and the best content sites need be no where in sight ( you could argue the definitons of good content )

    The move by commercial sites to buy, trade or get links from other weighty sites (amongst other things) has really skewed a lot of commercial search terms to those with the payola and clout , not nessacerily the best at all.

    So I would say in non commercial searches the best is the highest ( in most cases ) but on commercial searches ( in may cases ) so the business web master can not really afford to rest on his or her laurels when it comes to search engine optimisation If anyone can talk me out of this point of view please go ahead.
    Last edited by vgarcia; Sep 17, 2004 at 05:40. Reason: the text was unreadable...just a little cleanup

  10. #35
    Non-Member rebelbagwan's Avatar
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    oops lost the post , weird !

  11. #36
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    I think it is great where people say...100% just put up a great site and make it the best and the site will do the rest.

    Hogwash I say.

    It's like everyone knows someone who lived to 98 and who smoked 2 packs of cigs a day. This is the exception. Not the rule.

    To have a site rank well in your field of course you need content. How many visitors you get through your content alone depends on how competive your market is.

    Sure you can rate number 1 for a site about the atomic properties of long grained rice without a single back link. The more competetive the field the more work you need to do to get up there with everyone else.

    That extra work as far as google is concerned is back links. Not just any old back links either. Back links that come from other resources similar to yours that contain anchor text that has your key words in it. Google loves these back links.

    So. for most people it is not just let the site loose and the power of che will do the rest. It is hard slog making the site great and at the same time actively seeking people of quality to link to you.

    Just my 2 pence worth

    Simon

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot Digitalman's Avatar
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    Tip number 1: Having a lot of webmasters as friends.

  13. #38
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobmutch
    You tweek the on-page stuff, you buy, beg, borrow and trade links. You write articles that are tweeked for the keywords you think you can rank on. That gets you traffic. Not content!
    Content gets you traffic. The point we're trying to make is that . Yes, SEO will get you a higher ranking.

    But get this -- and I bold it to make my point clear, not to yell or anything:
    There are sites that are ranked highly for good keywords but have done no real SEO.

    Why?

    Because they offer a great service, or a great product, and are simply the best. And because they're the best, anyone who even thinks about their industry has to think of their brand. Or because they simply drive great links because they're content is so great!

    You don't have to actively be going out for links to get them. People will just link to you if your content is worth linking to.

    Yes, going out and getting additional links will help you.

    But the point of this thread, as you keep pointing out bobmutch, is the best way to get a high ranking.

    But what we're saying is in line with that: if you offer a great service, or great content, and you are the best at what you offer... then you will probably rank highly, and you'll have a better chance of ranking highly for an extended period of time.

    You won't need to convince people to keep your links, or constantly be going out to get them. The links will grow with no effort from you. Why? Because people want to talk about your site. People will go out and promote you!

    Search for "CSS" in Google. The top three results:

    #1: W3's CSS page. It's the official page, good content, the source for CSS. People link to it for that reason, that's how it got there.

    #2: W3Schools CSS tutorial. It's a great tutorial... no obvious SEO done.. but people forward their visitors there because it's one of the best references available.

    #3: CSS Zen Garden. Why does it rank so high? Not designed for SEO... not always out getting links... but it's a fantastic site with a fantastic message and people absolutely rave about it and link to it all the time. So it's gotten a high ranking.

    There is an abundance of proof that you can achieve high rankings with content alone.

    Yes, SEO WILL HELP MORE! I am not debating that. But it's not always the only way, and it's worth mentioning that having fantastic content is and will always always always be the best way to rank highly. Google and other SEs don't want SEO to work -- they want to find the most relevant and useful content available on their own, and provide that to their users. Having that will help you. Short term. Long term. Longer term.

    Links help.

    SEO helps.

    Phenomenal content is the way to high rankings that last.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  14. #39
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatnewt

    Search for "CSS" in Google. The top three results:

    #1: W3's CSS page. It's the official page, good content, the source for CSS. People link to it for that reason, that's how it got there.

    #2: W3Schools CSS tutorial. It's a great tutorial... no obvious SEO done.. but people forward their visitors there because it's one of the best references available.

    #3: CSS Zen Garden. Why does it rank so high? Not designed for SEO... not always out getting links... but it's a fantastic site with a fantastic message and people absolutely rave about it and link to it all the time. So it's gotten a high ranking.

    There is an abundance of proof that you can achieve high rankings with content alone.
    I do not argue against your mantra. Lets look at this from a slightly different view point.

    #1 Yes...this is the main site because this is where it all started I presume. Can't argue with that and rightly has number 1 slot.

    #2 and into infinity....how did these sites get found? Your not suggesting are you that they just put these sites up and the visitors flocked are you? Sounds like it to me but I may be wrong.

    These sites were advertised be it viral or paid advertising to get the push they needed. They remain where they are today because of the content and it was of course the content that got them noticed. But chicken and egg situation...to get found they did........????????

    Simon

  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot Alex_Yuruts's Avatar
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    Content of course! But the only way to reach a great pagerank is a great amount of backlinks from higrated sites.

  16. #41
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    I do not argue against your mantra. Lets look at this from a slightly different view point.

    #1 Yes...this is the main site because this is where it all started I presume. Can't argue with that and rightly has number 1 slot.

    #2 and into infinity....how did these sites get found? Your not suggesting are you that they just put these sites up and the visitors flocked are you? Sounds like it to me but I may be wrong.
    That's exactly how the Zen garden started. It actually began as a pet project for a designer, and he got some friends to make alternate stylesheets for his layout, and word of mouth spread like wildfire because it was that good.
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    These sites were advertised be it viral or paid advertising to get the push they needed. They remain where they are today because of the content and it was of course the content that got them noticed. But chicken and egg situation...to get found they did........????????

    Simon
    See above.

    My view on the whole thing:

    Play all the SEO tricks you want. It will get you a better ranking until the search engines change their algorithms or somebody out-SEOs you (and it will happen one day). Then what, learn more SEO tricks and play the cat and mouse game? If you have no good content to back your SEO up you'll always be in an arms race that you'll eventually lose. If you're happy with a short-term gain and little else then the tricks will get you there, but for a real long-term benefit that defies search algorithm changes you have to have better content than others in your field, plain and simple.

  17. #42
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Of course, any site needs a push. I've acknowledged that. But having great content can give you room to grow your site and eliminate the need to go out trying to just get links. Then, you can focus on more content, and higher-level marketing initiatives.

    And in response to Alex, yes... but the point is that having great content will help you acquire links anyways. That's the exact reason that Google PageRank even exists!
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  18. #43
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    That's exactly how the Zen garden started. It actually began as a pet project for a designer, and he got some friends to make alternate stylesheets for his layout, and word of mouth spread like wildfire because it was that good.
    Yes, I can see the viral marketing side really kick in. Not so amazing when you think that 99.999% of these people are net savvy hanging around the dark corners of the net and as such are all adding to the viral marketing effort.

    When it comes to more commercial products though I think you may find this viral effect you mention and demonstrate severly dampened.

    I agree 100% that content is king. What I do not agree with though is that for 99% of site owners it is not a case of put it up (a fantastic site) and along they all come.

    These are exceptions to the rule. There are many of them. There are millions upon millions of sites on the net. It stands to reason that there will be many exceptions.

    My percentages by the way are not based on any scientic facts they are just to embelish a point.

    I say that for commercial sites they need to be the best they can be but they also need to actively seek good link partners. Otherwise they will languish there amongst the millions of other "also rans"

    Just my 2 pence worth

    Simon

  19. #44
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    When it comes to more commercial products though I think you may find this viral effect you mention and demonstrate severly dampened.

    I agree 100% that content is king. What I do not agree with though is that for 99% of site owners it is not a case of put it up (a fantastic site) and along they all come.

    These are exceptions to the rule. There are many of them. There are millions upon millions of sites on the net. It stands to reason that there will be many exceptions.

    My percentages by the way are not based on any scientic facts they are just to embelish a point.

    I say that for commercial sites they need to be the best they can be but they also need to actively seek good link partners. Otherwise they will languish there amongst the millions of other "also rans"
    I agree, just like any business without a marketing department is doomed to fade into obscurity because nobody knows what they do or sell. But at the same token, I fail to see how "stuff keywords in h1 tags" or extra backlinks will really help a company's web presence long-term. A partnership with another business for complementary services will help your website in the long run yes, just like any other partnership works in real life, but if all you're trading is links then you're not getting the full potential out of that partnership. Then it's just a short-term fix to a long-term problem.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    But at the same token, I fail to see how "stuff keywords in h1 tags" or extra backlinks will really help a company's web presence long-term.
    I take it this part was from someone elses post as you quoted my post and then I see this sentence pop up in the same breath.

    Simon

  21. #46
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMc
    I take it this part was from someone elses post as you quoted my post and then I see this sentence pop up in the same breath.

    Simon
    That wasn't specifically pointed at you, just more of a general commentary on what I see as common SEO advice.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Guru SimonMc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    That wasn't specifically pointed at you, just more of a general commentary on what I see as common SEO advice.
    You had me worried there. I thought you were implying that this is the kind of advice I give out

    Simon

  23. #48
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    http://www.evolt.org/practicalseo/

    Is a good wrap-up of what is good and what is not.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Addict Pavel_Nedved's Avatar
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    Just to prove fatnewt & stymiee's point. Run a search for "computers". Do you think microsoft, apple, hp, all those big companies do any SEO? No. They're popular because they're multi-billion dollar corporations that everyone links to. Ok... it's a bit of a radical example, but if your product is good, people will link to you - which will improve your Page Rank, which will improve your position in the rankings, increase flow to your traffic, more people will link to you, repeat.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard Pedro Monteiro's Avatar
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    SimonMc, you have made some very good points there.

    The quality of content it very ambiguous, almost reminds me of the old literary dispute over what constitutes a literature or not.

    Strictly Comercial sites, for example, do not offer content in a "usable" sense, they focus on selling a service or a product. Of course that this can be considered to be "usable content" depending on how you look at it. The question is, how will Google look at this content?

    Consider SitePoint's comercial platform: http://www.sitepoint.com.au

    I seriously doubt that the site's content is updated weekly, maybe even monthly. Will this hurt the site's SE projection?

    Personally I don't think that content is that relevant to any Search Engine in raw terms. It will be relevant if other webmasters consider it to be.

    The quality of the content is does not seem to me to be dictated by Search Engines, but by webmasters, that by linking to a particular site, will bring it more relevance.


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