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  1. #1
    Procrastinator Extraordinaire lucas's Avatar
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    the only time i suppose this could come into play is if the user was using windows 3.1, but still, does it matter?

  2. #2
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    The answer I'd have to give would be no. The length of the file name doesn't even matter on the user's machine, only on the server hosting it and we don't host sites on Windows 3.1 servers anymore

    Just going on examples here, but I've not seen sites sticking to strictly 8 character filenames in a long time. Obviously there's no point going over board here (eg a_poem_on_an_incident_that_happened_on_my_way_to_the_toilet.html) but there's no need to limit yourself anymore.

    Ady
    v-technologies - Freelance Goodness.

  3. #3
    SitePoint Zealot Jason_Therrien's Avatar
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    Howdy!
    I would agree 100% with Ady.

    Don't worry about length, but don't go crazy with your file names either.
    GOOD LUCK!

    Jason
    www.SmartWebBusiness.com
    "What other type of Web Business would you run?!"

  4. #4
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    I disagree, but then I usually do

    It may be true that as a whole servers DO NOT run on windows 3.11. However, that is NOT the only computer that matters. For example, at the University where I work there are still machines running Widnows 3.11. What happens is that I could be developing a website and I could save it on disk and take it into work so that I could work on it some more there. Wodnows 3.11 will automatically truncuate any filenames to follow the format of 8.3 and anything that is longer gets replaced with a tilde.

    For example,
    mymainhobbiespage.html
    would become
    mymainh~.ht~

    This means that if you then upload the page onto a server, when you click on the link that opens mymainhobbiespage.html you would get a page not found error because for it to work the link should look like this:
    <A HREF="mymainh~.ht~">Hobbies</A>

    Believe me, I speak from personal experience. As a professional you need to ensure that your sites are as modular as possible. I also suggest that you stick to lower case as other operating systems are also case sensitive.

    As to
    but I've not seen sites sticking to strictly 8 character filenames in a long time
    please feel free to visit any of my sites.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    My advise: just don't use pre Win9x machines.
    Nathan Rutman
    A slightly offbeat creative.

  6. #6
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    That's not a very professional attitude though is it? For example, I used to work for a company that looked after the Intranet for British Aerospace. Anyone who is based in the Uk can confirm that BAe is a huge industry, yet they were runnign Windows 3.11 only 2 years ago. So I used to go on site and whilst I was there I would make ammends tot eh Intranet that needed to eb done there and then (although the major stuff was done back at the office). Would you honestly tell me that you would have turned down such a large contract because you were not capable of handling doing work on their antiquated system? I think not!

  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot
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    sticking to lower case is important i think...

    and so is sticking to 8 characters...

    but in some situations it is not as important as others. For example if your not running a massive site that will draw in people from all industries and communities, lets say a gaming site.

    If I am running a online gaming site, I can expect that pretty much 95% or more of my visitors will be using Windows 9x because they are hard core gamers and will invest the cash into getting the newest OS available. So then it would be safe for me to name my html documents with more than 8 characters.

    But I do agree with Nicky, if you are running a professional site. In the business world it is important to make your site accessible to 100% of the world (or as close as possible obviously). And to do so you need to work diligently toward those slow pokes in the world... Windows 3.11 users without many plug-ins because theyre too lazy to go download them or because they actually STILL have a 28.8 modem or a 33.6 modem and just plain dont wanna sit thru the download time.

    As frustrating as it may be...

  8. #8
    SitePoint Zealot
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    just my 2 cents

  9. #9
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome to the SP forums. Despite the fact that you have agreed with me and we respect everyone's point of view, I must point out the fact that users who do not download the latest plugins/browsers are not necessarily lazy.
    This is a very disrespectful and uninformed opinion. I know from experience that some of these factors often play a large part:

    * they do not know how to download and install software (why do you think IE has browser domination in the average household?)

    * they are unable to due to network/firewall restrictions

    * their hardware may not be suitable for newer software

    * they may not require to do so (for example maybe the only site they look at regularly is something like www.bbc.co.uk)

  10. #10
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nicky
    Hi and welcome to the SP forums. Despite the fact that you have agreed with me and we respect everyone's point of view, I must point out the fact that users who do not download the latest plugins/browsers are not necessarily lazy.
    This is a very disrespectful and uninformed opinion
    I do agree with Nicky on this last part, although I've always found viewing websites on Win 3.11 that have 8 letter+ file names to be fine, providing the server supported it. It's only when you start running files off disk that's a problem, but then the average user doesn't download a website and use it locally. I've never developed sites on Win 3.x but I've had that same problem when I tried to upload them from our University LRC.

    I've been criticised before for "wasting time" providing image alternatives for for Flash Animations and avoiding code that won't work in older browsers. The fact is, although the majority of people can handle it some people haven't got the time or system specification to use the newest technology and it's very important to make your site accessible to the highest number of people as possible. Research your target audience and develop for them, if you've not got a specific target audience develop for as many people as possible. It's important to know the capabilities of this audience too. For example if you're developing an Intranet and Joe Bloggs Inc installs IE5 as standard on all their office PCs you can maybe get away with using some IE only components etc, but it's better to know. Our Intranet is designed for Netscape, that was an experience I can tell you

    Overall, cos I'm waffling now, I think you should research what works, look at who you're targetting and adapt for them, while all the time trying to provide alternatives so your site is as easily accessible to everyone as possible.

    Ady
    v-technologies - Freelance Goodness.

  11. #11
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    It's for you Fluffykins

  12. #12
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    I'm blushing now

    Ady
    v-technologies - Freelance Goodness.

  13. #13
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I think if you're still using Win 3.x you deserve all the problems you get. I thought I put off upgrading a long time when I waited till either 97 or 98 (forget which) but its 2001.

    Whats more is any typical 3.1 machine would have maybe 4 or 8 megs of ram and less than a 100mhz processor. I doubt that could even handle today's browser.

    So you'd be using an original version of IE or something - thats insane.

    Do we design sites for the .1% of the population who never upgrades?

    I don't. If you're using an archaic browser and OS and can't view my site you can upgrade - but I'm not changing my site.

    That being said

    Windows 3.1 servers anymore...
    Did we ever? Windows 3.1 wasn't even an OS just a frontend for DOS.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
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  14. #14
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    You still don't get it do you? It's not about CHOICE, it's about the lack of it! I have no control over when my university upgrades their OS. And it is a large job to upgrade form Windows 3.11 to Windows NT for 33,000 users without disrupting anyone!

  15. #15
    SitePoint Zealot
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    well i have now attended 3 universities and 1 High School with very large networks and have yet to see a Windows 3.x OS...

    And although I agree with you nicky that yes most people out there are not just lazy and dont want to get the new upgrade... I happen to know (also from personal experience, as you stated) that there ARE in fact people out there that ARE too lazy to get the upgrade...

    So no matter how "very disrespectful and uninformed" my opinion may be, it still is very true...
    Some people, believe it or not, just dont use the internet enough to justify the time it takes to download an upgrade on their dinky little 28.8 modem...
    Last edited by -SeFu-; Mar 26, 2001 at 03:07.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Enthusiast smirk's Avatar
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    Wow.. there are still 3.11 users out there?

    I better start changing my file names eh?



    Just kidding. I usually try to keep them within 8 characters most of the time, but sometimes I forget or anything shorter than 8 characters just doesnt make any sense name wise.. I've spent some time 6 months down the road trying to figure out what I meant when I named a page

    wnt4nc2a.html

    Of course, that being said, if they cant see a page, that doesnt help does it. Usability is quite key I guess.. despite what some of us think of Jakob Nielsen (AND THATS NOT AN INVITATION TO START DISCUSSING HIM ON THIS THREAD... THAT GUY GETS WAY TOO MUCH AIR TIME AS IS)


  17. #17
    SitePoint Enthusiast norfett's Avatar
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    Whos he anyway?

    I'm not sure on this one, as when I worked for a Local council (North Yorkshire)in their web team, they made sure all their filenames were no longer than 8 - but personally, now being in the 21st century, I dont think its that important.

    The audience I can get for total-albion.com is huge, aged 1-100 all walks of life, all backgrounds, because football is so big. I mean, the official site gets 1.3 million hits a month, how many of them will be Win 3.x users? My own stats indicate that out of over 4000 visitors, I only got 4 Win 3.x people, and Ady, on the subject of NetSheep 4 / 6 - less than 1% use it to view total-albion and also less than 1% use macs, obviously, how accurate these figures are is another topic entirely seeing as their from thecounter.com

    Pete
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Ok, a couple of things to keep in mind:

    1) I seriously doubt that win3x has problems with html files with names longer than 8 characters unless it is the server. This means that browsers running on win3x will not have problems viewing www.b.com/123456789.html. If this was the case then win3x couldn't use *nix servers (since WindowsNT hadn't really become very popular yet) unless their filenames were less than 8 characters (we all know *nix users would have made them longer just to laugh at us windows users).

    2) Being the web designer you should be told of special circumstances by a client (such as the insane idea of trying to run a webserver off of win3x).

    3) Guys, there is nothing (yes, NOTHING - yay i like these bold tags) offensive or disrespectful about this post. I mean, my word, we're talking about Windows 3.x and the act of downloading browsers. (although in my experience in the computer industry, I think laziness holds more water than ignorance or stupidity - if the users aren't capable to take care of their own PC's, the company needs a reliable IT dept.)

    4) Nicky, A lot has happened in the last two years. Do you think Dell was selling 900Mhz machines for $900 two years ago? I think not! And even if they did use win3x for the intranet, the WEB SERVER would have to run on win3x. You didn't say that anywhere in the post.

    5) Nicky, No, my thoughts were not very professional, but I didn't think I was called to be professional here. In the future, I'll wear a shirt and tie to post to SitePoint.

    Just trying to make those few points...honestly I think this topic is a little out there.

    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nicky
    You still don't get it do you? It's not about CHOICE, it's about the lack of it! I have no control over when my university upgrades their OS. And it is a large job to upgrade form Windows 3.11 to Windows NT for 33,000 users without disrupting anyone!
    I'm a little surprised that a college/university hasn't gotten new machines in the last six years. Even my penny-pinching dad is thinking of getting a new machine after five years (he always ran Windows95/98 btw).

    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
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  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot
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    good point goof, and one i was thinking about myself...
    What kind of college decides its not worth investing a few bucks into upgrading the OS's for their students to use?!

    I mean, I thought the entire goal of most universities was to provide their students (and definitely faculty) with the most up to date technology available...

    When looking at my schedule of classes last semester, I dont remember seeing a course for learning the Win 3.x Operating Systems...
    Perhaps I overlooked it when reading the course descriptions on all the NT and UNIX courses available? I doubt it...

    So if they are not teaching courses on Win 3.x, then why on earth would they still have computers running it?

    So just out of curiousity... where is this campus you speak of that has no computer running anything above 3.x?
    And how much is tuition?

    And by the way, Im not only talking about the University I am attending now, but also the Local Community College I attended prior to this...

  21. #21
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    Seriously though, even though Win 3.1 is in the minority (like 1%) of users, You still got to consider it. Why? because they can't use the latest browsers that support long domain names (the first version of NCSA Mosaic only likes something like 64 characters).

    I found that on our website, I had to comment out a whole bunch of code, and shorten some other lines 'cause one of our users was having problems viewing the site.

    As far as 8.3 filenames are concerned, I think that this really depends on what the webserver is running. AFAIK, I don't think there is much webserver software available for 3.1, and I have yet to see an example of one. I would go along with Nicky's last point, and fluffykins first point. Don't be held back by filename length, but remember that you want your site to be as transportable as possible (there goes the asp out of the window ) so it's worth keeping to shorter names.

    Another point i would highlight is - don't ever put spaces in filenames either! That's hard to interpret too, and is guarenteed to upset Netscape.

    Oh, and about the college buying machines thing.... I (as a student) am organising the purchase of a new webserver , + 2 linux boxes.. You wouldn't believe the hassle that it takes to arrange the funding, which account to use, etc. a real nightmare

    James Cox


  22. #22
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    Imajes,
    Please reread my post. I think I pointed out pretty clearly that browsers running on win3.x can go to sites with longer than 8 chars in the filename. The only way you would run into problems is if the WEBSITE (ie. www.microsoft.com) is being HOSTED on a windows 3.x machine. In my mind, anyone who decides to do that deserves to be out of a job...so they can go back to school.

    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
    A slightly offbeat creative.

  23. #23
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
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    Goof, yes you are right the problem is NOT with people using Win 3.11 viewing webpages. Neither is it with servers running 3.11 as I have yet to work on a Win 3.11 server. The problem is with devlopers working with Win 3.11. As I said before, I had to work on my Win 3.11 machine at university to develop webpages and if I have previously worked at home on Win 98 and created all my links, when I worked on the site in Win 3.11 the filenames would get truncuated and none of my links would work!

    At the same time, I also agree that Universities do need to upgrade their systems. We at the department of computing got NT 9 months before everyone else did because we were the test department. I mean, if are students can't crash it and find problems then it was doubtful that anyone else can. Problem is that it has got loads of problems, and most people prefer to use Win 3.11 because right now it is a bit more stable. I agree that you would expect this system to be up adn running and working efficiently, but the reality of the situation is that it is not, and unitl it is we just have to cope as there is nothing we can do about it. I tend to hardly log on to the system and I always take my laptop inot work and use that instead.

  24. #24
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Originally posted by Goof
    Imajes,
    Please reread my post. I think I pointed out pretty clearly that browsers running on win3.x can go to sites with longer than 8 chars in the filename. The only way you would run into problems is if the WEBSITE (ie. www.microsoft.com) is being HOSTED on a windows 3.x machine. In my mind, anyone who decides to do that deserves to be out of a job...so they can go back to school.

    Goof
    That's kinda what I was trying to say in my post... well the meaning was there..


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