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  1. #1
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    Page rank went up and went down

    I have a question. My index page rank has stayed at 5 for a long time now. I recently created animal.htm to optimize it for animal jewelry. The page was indexed and carried a PR1. I optimized better for it so it might rank higher. I wasn't sure if the page would get me penalized or not since I have the animal jewelry on my .asp pages. Anyway, a few days ago, my index page went to PR6 and my animal.htm went to PR0. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Nicci
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com

  2. #2
    SitePoint Evangelist rockyracoon's Avatar
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    PageRank is a red herring.

  3. #3
    SEO Link Building Master I, Brian's Avatar
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    What Rocky says.
    Internet Business Forums - free business help & advice

  4. #4
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    I think you are right. I deleted the Alexa Bar because it was a spyware problem and I've considered deleting the PR. I also love the phrase "red herring". I'm gonna have to use that one. Thanks!
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com

  5. #5
    SitePoint Guru
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    Pagerank is a function of links, not other optimization. A page can be PR0 for lots of reasons including not being linked to, or not having been crawled this cycle. In your case the text is duplicated, so it should no surprise that the page might be ignored.

    Pagerank is also more important now than anytime in the past eighteen months. People who don't know how to use it or understand it tend to wave their arms about it.

    I'd start over and make a new animal jewely page, and make the content completely different than th asp page.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
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    Where'd you get THAT from 2010? Pagerank's gotta be the most useless thing in the world.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by someonewhois
    Where'd you get THAT from 2010? Pagerank's gotta be the most useless thing in the world.
    First, if you want to talk about uselessness of PR it would probably better than to hijack this guy's thread, but aside from that, to call pagerank useless is just crazy. High PR gets domains crawled from top to bottom every day. I can rank #1 within one day for any topic in my niche that comes along new (meaning like a new news-like story) because the page will be crawled within hours, and the PR of the links pointing to it will make it #1. Then, in uncompetitive but high volume/interchangeable type searches, like the name of a Denver hotel, higher PR wins, period.... when choosing between a ton of template-type pages, PR is about the only way to distinguish what should go first. And then finally, in hyper competive areas you have no chance of competing with quality sites with PR two or three points higher, none.

    Then, the most recent update increased the value of PR a lot, while at the same time hammering a lot of sites that had garbage PR from thousands of junk link exchanges.

    Pagerank is useless to people who don't know what to do with it, but if you are in the business of making money on the Internet in competive areas, using PR wisely is to print money.

  8. #8
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Alright. I challenge any of you who have said PageRank is worthless to explain why you feel that way. Explain what has changed that made it worthless. I keep hearing from people (who are obviously just repeating other people ad naseum) that PageRank is worthless.

    Is PageRank all important? No, is it the only thing that matters no? Is the PageRank of a page heavily weighted when ranking that page? No.

    Is PageRank useless? No.

    Do you need to worry about PageRank? Yes. Is the way that PageRank flows through your site important? Yes. Is the PageRank of the pages linking to you important? Yes. If you know what you're doing can you use your PageRank to your advantage? Absolutely.

    Do many people worry about it too much without understanding it? Yes

    Is telling these people that PageRank is worthless doing them a favor? No.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
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    Is telling people that PageRank is the most important now than before doing them a favor? Not really either.

    PageRank has very little impact on your SERP's, which should be all that matters. Even in the case that PageRank has an effect, it can be argued that it's indirectly. If I get hundreds of thousands of linkins for a keyword (by for a keyword I mean the anchor text), I'll probably get first for that keyword. My PR will also go up - Has PR been my friend and given me a good SERP result? Not really, it's a coincidence.

    I'm not just repeating what other people say, this is my opinion of the way the system works. PR is a marketing hype that isn't as crucial as people make it out to be. As for hijacking the thread, the person's question hsa pretty much been answered anyway, and it's to do with PR anyway, so it's pretty much the same boat.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by someonewhois
    PageRank has very little impact on your SERP's, which should be all that matters.

    Even in the case that PageRank has an effect, it can be argued that it's indirectly. If I get hundreds of thousands of linkins for a keyword (by for a keyword I mean the anchor text), I'll probably get first for that keyword. My PR will also go up - Has PR been my friend and given me a good SERP result? Not really, it's a coincidence.
    The first statement is of course nonsense. There is no point even discussing that.

    It's true that in terms of rankings several things can "work". Lots of anchor text links can help rankings. But so can one single PR8 link. It's not going to wash your car or make you rank first for every thing in the world, nor likely to get you to out rank a page with 100 good anchor text PR6 links, but stopping there is simplistic. One PR8 link can lead to you creating dozens of PR7 and PR6 pages, as well as hundreds of PR5 pages, all of which could have anchor text benefiting you.

    In any case, this is just fantasy stuff. If you think PR doesn't matter, start with a PR4 page and make a tree with 1000 pages under it on some topic, most pages will then be PR1 or 2, and kick the butt of a 1000 pages created from a PR8 main page, that will all be PR5+. It's not going to happen on this planet.

  11. #11
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    PageRank has very little impact on your SERP's, which should be all that matters. Even in the case that PageRank has an effect, it can be argued that it's indirectly. If I get hundreds of thousands of linkins for a keyword (by for a keyword I mean the anchor text), I'll probably get first for that keyword. My PR will also go up - Has PR been my friend and given me a good SERP result? Not really, it's a coincidence.
    You don't understand, PR in this instance is an indicator, not a cause.

    The PageRank of a page is an indicator for the weight of that page's incoming links. As such it IS a valid way to measure your progress, as valid as raw numbers of incoming links. But comparisons outside of your competition are meaningless.

    The other way PR matters is of course as 2010 mentions, in getting a page crawled quickly. When I launch a new AWS powered site I usually get it fully crawled and in Google in 2 weeks.

    Of course the PR of the pages that links to you matters. Assuming anchor text is the same a link from a PR8 is hugely better than a link from a PR3.

    But, the raw PR of your homepage, or any page, also matters, as that is the maximum weight it can pass on. Many subpages have only links from within your site and so having enough PageRank to pass around to all your pages is vital to having those sub pages rank well.

    Do you know what else is vital? Anchor text and on page optimization. You need it all. The weight, the on page context, and the off page context.

    Saying PageRank is worthless is like saying incoming links are worthless. I know none of you believe that, so stop saying it. Paint a bigger picture.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
    My Guide to Building a Successful Website
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  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
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    PR is not as neccesary as it's potrayed to be either. There's a line between where 2010 drew it and where I drew it. Although I said it in a rather biased remark, it was simply a counter to the first remark.

    Also, since PR is an indicator, and ont a cause, then it technically doesn't have any good. It's like the Alexa Rank - it's a good indicator at how established you are, but it's really not all that important traffic-wise. Alexa Rank is considered out of it, and PR has come in in it's place, but PR still doesn't do all that much for your SERP's.

  13. #13
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    You're not going to rank well without it.

    PageRank is the weight of your incoming links.

    Without weighty incoming links you will not rank well. Without weight to share throughout your site your subpages will not rank well.

    Whats really going to help you in the SERPs is weighty incoming links. Which is what PageRank is an approximation of.

    Lets use a baseball analogy.

    A guy on a team says "I want to get alot of RBIs" a teammate says "RBIs are worthless, we need runs scored."
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
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    Hmm, well, if the person who wants RBI's is the pitcher they could tell him to sit down. Just joking. It's an indication, okay, I'll leave it at that.

  15. #15
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    Well you're not even right about that.

    "since PR is an indicator, and [not] a cause" is false.

    Most clearly, high PR is the cause of deeper, more regular crawling.

    PR is the mathematical result of a combination of influences. The equation result can then go on to influence other things. I link a new page from a single link from a PR6 page, next update that new page is PR5. This is totally the result of the existence and strength of the PR6 page. Having a PR5 causes the page to get benefits that it would not have otherwise. It's not the only thing, but it is one thing.

  16. #16
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    When I said PR is an indicator, not a cause, I said "in this instance." I was responding to a ranking/incoming link quote.

    I know and enjoy that PR get you deeper and more regularly crawled.
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
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  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy someonewhois's Avatar
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    On the other hand, getting more "regular crawled" could be indirectly and be an indicator not a cause too, couldn't it?

  18. #18
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Its a result....
    Chris Beasley - I publish content and ecommerce sites.
    Featured Article: Free Comprehensive SEO Guide
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    Thank you all. I am more confused than ever...just kidding. I'm going to do as I always have. I'm going to do my best to optimize the page and go from there. I always learn alot on this site especially when there is a debate. It gives me different ways to look at things. Nicci
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com

  20. #20
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    The most optimized page in the world won't do well if it has no PR. Get incoming links, too.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  21. #21
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatnewt
    The most optimized page in the world won't do well if it has no PR. Get incoming links, too.
    That's great, but what is your thoughts on getting incoming links to that page. I'm sure I am not thinking of the box. Would you suggest getting reciprocal links to that page specifically?
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com

  22. #22
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    This seems to be a good place to start, http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67632
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com

  23. #23
    SitePoint Enthusiast hb-sam's Avatar
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    This thread got seriously off track to be honest.

    Nicci, give it some time. It can take a few cycle of Google PR/backlink updates before new pages receive PR.

  24. #24
    SitePoint Enthusiast ldylion214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hb-sam
    This thread got seriously off track to be honest.

    Nicci, give it some time. It can take a few cycle of Google PR/backlink updates before new pages receive PR.
    I will do just that. I even know it from my previous experience. Thanks! Nicci
    Nicci VanCleave
    Tribe Azure Jewelry
    Custom Native American Jewelry created by Ron Henry
    http://tribeazure.com


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