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  1. #1
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Looking for ENTP libraries

    Hi.

    I like working in an agile environment and I like working in small companies. I like smaller simpler languages which are powerful in their own domain rather than all purpose sledge hammers. I like some pieces of code and not others, but it's not just quality. I like some libraries and APIs, but not others. This got me thinking.

    If code has a personality I thought I had better measure mine. A bit of research later (Ok, trawling Teoma aand Google) and I amongst others tried the Myers-Briggs test for team building. Fantastic! I am ENTP (Extrovert-Intuitive-Thinking-Perceiving) apparently and extremely so. Here is how it relates.

    Extrovert-Perceiving means I can work in groups and try to lead by concensus without telling people what to do. Ironically, smaller departments and companies are more suitable here because of the loose hierachies. You will likely work with the same people day in day out fairly closely as well. It also means (I am reading this now) that I can change direction easily. So that sorts that out. Introverts (I) will finish things quietly without support, and Judgers (J) will try to organise their work environment, often around themselves. I am certainly not organised . Maybe that is why I like less formal languages like PHP. And also why I like face to face decisions in small or agile companies.

    The Intuitive-Thinker is more interesting. Intuitives don't have to fully understand things before embarking on an action and favour creative solutions. They also delight in the abstract and are optimistic. I think this is another why I like the agile approaches to development. Design is less formalised and more blended with the coding process, allowing free creative reign and exploration rather than controlling that process. So far uncanny .

    Now, any interface has a personality and I think code does too. Some libraries will directly solve your problem and nothing else, but are flexible for being small. Some will be more like frameworks, taking over your code, but supplying rich services. Some will have defaults filled and you will have to subclass. Others give you pieces of a puzzle you assemble yourself. Some give docs, some give tutorials, and so on. I cannot yet identify these characteristics or axis, but I have started thinking about them. Any ideas?

    If code does have a personality that would explain why it is so difficult to build code via SitePoint threads . It also presents problems for PEAR's no duplicate package rule...

    Another interesting point is your ideal spouse. Mine is INTJ (she is!) and they like to plan and organise and make more pragmatic assessments of the ENTP's rush of ideas. Ideal support and I'd be lost without her.

    Now I think you marry your methodology. For me the Extreme Programming style handles the important small things for me that I just won't do myself. Acceptance tests keep me from going off at a tangent, unit tests keep me from writing messy code (and I really rely on testing) and iterations make sure I actually manage to finish things. XP doesn't get in the way of small groups coming up with solutions, which suits me to the ground. Up to now the more ILTJ style engineers have been running things. We have more formalised, logical, step by step designs but less emphasis on controlling the detail that is supposed to look after itself. Well good for them maybe, but that's not for me. Us ENTPs are fighting back.

    (I really should start a blog for this kind of stuff)

    Anyway I am curious to see how people measure up and how that tallies with their coding style. The Myers-Briggs tests are fairly quick and there are a lot on the net. Go on, have a go...

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  2. #2
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    i took it a couple years ago for my job, and the one thing i remember is that on the scale for Extroverts/Introverts, with extroverts being 0 and introverts 21 (or whatever the numbers) , i was a 21. completely Introverted.
    i believe i was an INTJ but i can't recall for sure. i just took an online version and did come up with INTJ (95% introverted), or what Keirsey calls "The Portrait of the Mastermind".
    http://keirsey.com/personality/ntij.html

    If code does have a personality that would explain why it is so difficult to build code via SitePoint threads
    very insightful. i looked at a lot of code this morning from various threads. it definitely all had different personality. it even had more effect on me emotionally than logically, most of it negative.

  3. #3
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    Just took the test and Im an Architect (iNTp). Seems that the pattern so far is that coders are Rationals.

    Looking over the description of my personality, this stuck out "The Architects' distant goal is always to rearrange the environment somehow, to shape, to construct, to devise, whether it be buildings, institutions, enterprises, or theories. They look upon the world -- natural and civil -- as little more than raw material to be reshaped according to their design, as a formless stone for their hammer and chisel."

    I am constantly rewriting stuff Ive done. I finally get it to where I think its perfect, then a month later I look and cant believe the "mistakes" and I have to rewrite.

    Luckily the mistakes are getting smaller .

  4. #4
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenden Vickery
    Just took the test and Im an Architect (iNTp)
    Traditionally that is the perfect programmer. I come under "entrepeneur" and tend to be an ideas generator (which fits).

    What methodology are you married to?

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
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  5. #5
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    The test said I was iNTj (Mastermind). That aparently means I'm in the same class as Ayn Rand. Great way to start the day Of course, I think MB is complete BS. But to be fair, I think nearly all of my coworkers would be Rationals.

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    I took the test, seems I'm an Idealist amongst all of you masterminds

  7. #7
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    Interesting rant/thought.

    Could be interesting to see if there was a pattern here considering programmers.

    I had to take the test aswell, seems i am ENFJ

    # slightly expressed extrovert
    # moderately expressed intuitive personality
    # slightly expressed feeling personality
    # slightly expressed judging personality

    "The teacher style".

    Must say i was a bit surprised by that.
    A typical thing i have noticed when it comes to me and programming is that i never ever ever get satisifed.

    Everything i write is temporary. For each refactoring or rewrite i do, i find myself putting in comments like: "this is temporary, change soon."
    It doesnt matter how many times i rewrite it, i always see a better solution to apply.

    The same goes for learning, i never get satisfied with my knowledge, this is both good and bad. Lately (over a year) most of my learning efforts has been put into programming and php. As i get deeper into theory i find it even more interesting to keep going.

    So i find the test result to be a bit weird.
    Being a teacher type, apparently, i should be more of a leading type in some project. But rather i work for myself, i simply cant find time to participate in any of the interesting projects that there are in the php community.

    If code has personality, which makes sense, since the programmer has personality, and likely that will be reflected in the code.
    If that is so, i will have some problems according to the test result.
    My personality type is rare, it was stated : "The Teachers are found in no more than 2 or 3 percent of the population."

    So in other words that could mean less chance of me working with others code that shares my personality?

  8. #8
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Findus
    seems i am ENFJ
    Funnily, I used to be a teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Findus
    Everything i write is temporary. For each refactoring or rewrite i do, i find myself putting in comments like: "this is temporary, change soon."
    It doesnt matter how many times i rewrite it, i always see a better solution to apply.
    I think that this goes with the territory. One characteristic of good developers (according to Sallyann Bryant) is a high degree if introspection and self analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Findus
    So i find the test result to be a bit weird.
    Being a teacher type, apparently, i should be more of a leading type in some project. But rather i work for myself, i simply cant find time to participate in any of the interesting projects that there are in the php community.
    I tended to drop into the coaching role when placed into a larger team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Findus
    are found in no more than 2 or 3 percent of the population.
    Me too .

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
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  9. #9
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    i was just thinking how odd this thread would be if it were about personality types... and lo and behold

    i'm INTJ/P, which makes me run of the mill here.. perhaps there's correlation with INTJ and php types

  10. #10
    SitePoint Enthusiast lacerus's Avatar
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    ENTP here, too. Maybe that's why I like to read lastcrafts code examples so much ;-)

    BTW, did you know, only 2.27 percent of keirsey.com test takers are ENTPs (http://www.keirsey.com/scripts/stats.cgi)

  11. #11
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    What test are you guys taking? I took http://www.advisorteam.com/temperame...r/register.asp and it told me I'm a gaurdian....

  12. #12
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetic-Theory
    What test are you guys taking?
    Myers-Briggs. There are plenty on the net. Here is one...
    http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things

  13. #13
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    It turns out I'm a teacher... ENFJ

    # distinctively expressed extrovert
    # slightly expressed intuitive personality
    # moderately expressed feeling personality
    # slightly expressed judging personality

    "The Teachers are found in no more than 2 or 3 percent of the population."

    Maybe it does have something to do with code then; because I hate using almost anyones code but mine. I stay away from premade libraries; to be honest, I would rather reinvent the wheel then use someone elses.

  14. #14
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    I'm an ENTJ....

    A fieldmarshall apparently, and when I started reading the description, I must say that I have experienced some of what they're talking about...

    Interesting stuff.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Guru dagfinn's Avatar
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    I turned out ENFJ as well. Now I'm looking forward to telling my friends I have "tremendous charisma" (according to http://typelogic.com/enfj.html) and seeing them fall off their chairs laughing.
    Dagfinn Reiersøl
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  16. #16
    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    I was a INTJ "mastermind"
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
    Book: PHP Patterns
    Good Stuff: SimpleTest PHPUnit FireFox ADOdb YUI
    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Marcus, you've failed to ask the obvious question:

    How do we develop a "personality test" for code?

    That is, given that we think code has a "personality", and given that various types among us will be attracted/repulsed by our "compatibility" with the code's personality, how do we measure it?

    And conversely, how do we measure ourselves, if the MB test isn't quite the right one for coder/code compatibility?

    (I'm going to run off and register the 'sourcematch.com' domain -- "Get hooked up with a hot MVC framework tonite!" -- let the spam begin...

    =Austin

  18. #18
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Hastings
    Marcus, you've failed to ask the obvious question:

    How do we develop a "personality test" for code?
    That is actually exactly what I am asking . I have been thinking of some metrics already, but I thought it best for it to sit at the back of my head for bit as I look at future code.

    More immediately answerable is the methodology marriage. It would be interesting to see how personality type chooses the work environment (and languages).

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
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  19. #19
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    How do we develop a "personality test" for code?
    Wtf ?? Are you all off your heads ?

    Personality test ? I think so

  20. #20
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    WM,

    We're not off our heads -- if you will take a look around at some of the code being posted, I think you'll find that some of the code "agrees" with you more than other code.

    Obviously, part of that will be due to the skill of the coder. But another part, more significant in the long run, will be due to the "personality" of the code.

    So the question is, what metrics should we measure to provide some sort of "personality hash" to assign to bits of code.

    (Much like the MB personality test assigns people to one of 16 categories.)

    Being able to characterize the personality of a code module, especially if it could be done mechanically, would provide another handle to use when trying (for example) to choose which application framework or template package or database abstraction layer to choose. Given that I've spent a few days trying out different libraries before finding one I am "comfortable" with, I can see that having such a metric would pay off to the tune of maybe a man-week per year. That's a either 2% increase in productivity, or a 30% increase in vacation time.

    =Austin

  21. #21
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Here are some metrics:

    • License
    • Coding Standard (Naming Convention)
    • Language/Components (Python vs. PHP, MySql vs. PostGreSQL)
    • Language/Component Level (MySql 3? 4? 5?)
    • Language Features (objects? exceptions? register_globals?)
    • Style (procedural vs. OO)


    Feel free to list some more.

    =Austin

  22. #22
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    We're not off our heads
    I wasn't being serious, only cracking a joke yes ?


  23. #23
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Hastings
    Feel free to list some more.
    How open it is to modification and how? For example do you subtype a fixed class and plug it into the library or do you assemble exsiting components. Conversely are you required to set up configuration files on a black box. So "open vs. config" (O/C). "Live User" would definitely be in the C end, SimpleTest is more into the O end (IMO).

    How in control of the execution path is it? Does it supply you with a set of tools for you to run, or are you required to plug classes into it's system. In Java terms who runs main(), you or the library? Basically does it tend to supply back or the front: Runner or Library (R/L). WACT's custom tags are R compared with Smarty's L like templates.

    How much does it force you to conform to the library's implicit conveniences? So system based versus making you deal with all of the explicit interactions. For example unified error handling and logging hidden behind the scenes. I call this implict versus explicit interactions (I/E). PEAR is generally in the I end and Eclipse is more E.

    It is very difficult to come up with others without code quality interfering. For example fine grain classes are usually preffered as a "good thing" as developers progress rather then due to style. I would reject OO vs. procedural on the same grounds.

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
    Other: Phemto dependency injector
    Books: PHP in Action, 97 things


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