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  1. #1
    ComDude CryingWolf's Avatar
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    Because the topic was close but I wanted to share this article from NOVA about the great pyramids:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid.../builders.html

    Now just recently I was contacted by the construction firm DMJM -- the initials stand for Daniel, Mann, Johnson & Mendenhall -- it's one of the largest construction firms, they're working right now on the Pentagon. And one of the senior vice presidents decided to take on for a formal address for fellow engineers, a program management study of the Great Pyramid. So these are not guys lifting boilers in Manhattan, these are senior civil engineers with one of the largest construction corporations in the United States. And I'm sure they'd be happy to go on record with their study which looked at what they call critical path analysis. What do you need to get the job done? What tools did they have? And they contacted me and other Egyptologists and we gave them some references. Here's what we know about their tools, the inclined plane, the lever and so on. And without any secret sophistication or hidden technology, just basically what archaeologists say, this is what these folks had. DIM JIM came up with 5,000, 4 to 5,000 men could build the Great Pyramid within a 20 to 40 year period. And they have very specific calculations on every single aspect, from the gravel, for the ramps, to baking the bread. So I throw that out there, not because that's gospel truth, but because reasoned construction engineers, who plan great projects like bridges and buildings today and earthworks and so on, look at the Great Pyramid and don't opt out for lost civilizations, extraterrestrials, or hidden technologies. No, they say it's a very impressive job, extraordinary for the people who lived then and there, but it could be done. They are human monuments.
    I also read something about how the original older small pyramids where lined with the stars but the great pyrmaids are inline with the movement of the sun... You should note that this is not unusual for a people who look to the stars for answers etc...

    Late

    (You may close this thread if it gets out of hand again!!!)
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  2. #2
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    I always thought modern construction workers spent too long drinking tea, and having a fag...

    "They just dont work like they did in my day" - Everyone's Grandmother
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  3. #3
    ComDude CryingWolf's Avatar
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    Well then came along osha and yep no more swinging from a crane cable with no safety gear while in a wind storm
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  4. #4
    Skills to Pay the Bills Sparkie's Avatar
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    I've actually heard recent reports that the pyramids were not built, as some believe, by slaves or aliens, but instead by everyday Egyptian volunteers. Look at it this way, they had no television, no internet, no videogames, so why not build a pyramid to honor the pharaoh? I'm sure the Egyptian artisans could cut the blocks with accurate precision, since they were able to make those astounding carvings within their leaders' tombs.
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  5. #5
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Hi, I am from the planet Vulcan - and no I'm not Leonard Nimoy. I have it on good authority that a friend of mine's brother's great-grand-father-in-law was a senior consulting engineer on the pyramids project.

    As for humans inventing mathematics - I'm not saying that Vulcan's invented all mathematics - but Pythagoras was in fact a Vulcan (not Greek as is widely believed).

    Hope that clears matters up!

  6. #6
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    No, I think he was just Irish. That explains the greatness.
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  7. #7
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    That's basically what i would have posted if the previous thread hadn't been closed.

    For the record, there are TONS of small pyramids, so why wondering about the great ones ? They're just a demonstration of what can be done with a lot of workers and good architects.
    The materials ? Egypt is just a desert ? Well, just look around the Nil, you'll find lots of trees and rocks.

    As for the mathematics, i laughed hard when i saw someone supposing an alien origin.
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  8. #8
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    edit for spelling

    I know! I thought Ghandi invented math. He's old, right?
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Addict Drinky's Avatar
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    :O)

    Maths wasn't invented, it was discovered. You can't invent stuff that exists, but you can discover it.
    Drinky

  10. #10
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Whoa, that's deep.

    So, like....whoa. Just...whoa.
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Addict Drinky's Avatar
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    Ha Ha Ha :O)
    Drinky

  12. #12
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    I think this is the right place to voice the opinion that
    1+1=3
    (that is not a typo)...

    Imagine if is was "decided" that 1+1 did indeed produce the value of 3.
    Although then we must establich a defiante value for 3.
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    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    edited to insert snide remark

    Well, Three is basically a place holder for a number. We could have the symbol '3' stand for two objects, a symbol 5 stand for seven, and so on. All they are is symbols. Numbers are intangible objects, and that's why man created placeholders, albeit many different ones.

    <<edit>>Now, doesn't that sound smart? <</edit>>
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    Hence...
    Although then we must establich a defiante value for 3.



    Oh yeah defiante was meant to be definate
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    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Three could have technically stood for the number two in the beginning of time. Basically, you have two objects (put up two fingers. 1, 2). Now, draw a symbol to represent that object. It could be a three, it could be a , it could be a penny, it could be a box, etc. Well, maybe not a penny. They weren't around that early.
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  16. #16
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Our modern numerals are derived from Arabic. The Hindu's invented the concept of zero. (And as I said previously the Vulcans invented trigonometry.)

  17. #17
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Just like letters were invented, and not discovered...
    Math was invented, it wasn't discovered.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    I would argue that concepts were invented (well possibly conceived but same thing basically).

    Maths wasnt invented though, i do agree with that :-)
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  19. #19
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Math was discovered just as much as writing was discovered. Math is just a way of writing something. It is one (imperfect) way of understanding certain things.

    If I came up with a better mathematical system, would I have invented the system or discovered it?

    If math is something that was discovered, why can't I see it? You know, I was walking down the street today and I saw a mathematic. It was quite interesting. I looked in a place nobody has looked before and I discovered a new mathematic where 1/0 = 7.

    Bell discovered the telephone!
    Columbus invented the land mass called North America!

    Math exists because we think it exists. Our thoughts influence the universe... that's why toasters only appear on the planet earth... chaos theory you say?? no such thing.

    3.14159265 is PI you say? I say Pi is 1 and everything else is relative to that. The circumference of a circle is therefore 2 x the radius. I discovered that the volume of the average cube is equal to 8 and base a new mathematical system on that where the side of the cube can't be calculated because there's no such thing as something that exists in only one dimension.

    Math as it stands currently is limited and should be improved.

    I have discovered that much of math is a lie.
    I don't have to calculate PI, I know it is 1.

  20. #20
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    I'm stepping out of this "argument". Water's too hot for me.
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  21. #21
    ComDude CryingWolf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    Math was discovered just as much as writing was discovered. Math is just a way of writing something. It is one (imperfect) way of understanding certain things.

    If I came up with a better mathematical system, would I have invented the system or discovered it?

    If math is something that was discovered, why can't I see it? You know, I was walking down the street today and I saw a mathematic. It was quite interesting. I looked in a place nobody has looked before and I discovered a new mathematic where 1/0 = 7.

    Bell discovered the telephone!
    Columbus invented the land mass called North America!

    Math exists because we think it exists. Our thoughts influence the universe... that's why toasters only appear on the planet earth... chaos theory you say?? no such thing.

    3.14159265 is PI you say? I say Pi is 1 and everything else is relative to that. The circumference of a circle is therefore 2 x the radius. I discovered that the volume of the average cube is equal to 8 and base a new mathematical system on that where the side of the cube can't be calculated because there's no such thing as something that exists in only one dimension.

    Math as it stands currently is limited and should be improved.

    I have discovered that much of math is a lie.
    I don't have to calculate PI, I know it is 1.

    So what your saying is the telephone existed before Bell found it? And pi = 1?

    Well what I say is you are all just figments of my imagination and I am the only one that exists!!!

    And I thought I was only one with a tailored straight jacket???
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  22. #22
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CryingWolf



    So what your saying is the telephone existed before Bell found it? And pi = 1?


    If math was discovered, then so was the telephone.
    The only math that really does exist is addition and subtraction. Everthing is putting things together or taking them apart. I don't know how much of a 'discovery' that would be.

    Maybe it goes like this: some people invented math and discovered it was useful.

    Pi could equal one if I decide to make that my base unit for measurement, or counting, and make all other things relative to it.

    Ever tried division using roman numerals? Write Pi using roman numerals.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Evangelist mad-onion's Avatar
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    Mathematics is little more than a set of concepts and rules for working with those concepts, so that was invented (or maybe conceieved would be a better word).
    However what those concepts explain was never invented, nor do i believe it was discovered...hard to say with that

    Going back to the telephoen thing, well i will use radio because it is easier to explain.
    Sound waves were not invented, although they were discovered and munipulated...to provide us with radio.
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  24. #24
    ********* Callithumpian silver trophy freakysid's Avatar
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    Well we need to distinguish between the physical phenomena we are observing and the abstractions we use to interpret, model and forecast those physical phenomena.

    We may discover a phenomena and invent an abstract method of interpreting and modelling that phenomena.

    Newton discovered that when he sat under an apple tree laden with ripe apples, when the apple fell from the tree it would hit his head. He discovered a phenomena. His discovery lead him to invent Newtonian physics - a series of mathematical formule which approximately model the certain physical phenomena.

    Lets say I have two coconuts and you have one coconuts.

    x = 2
    y = 1

    We can say that I have more coconuts than you x > y
    We can also say that I have twice as many coconuts as you x = 2 * y
    We can say that I have one more coconut that you x = y + 1

    These are all abstractions of the reality, because you turn around and argue to me "Freakysid - that's all well and good but I have more coconut than you!" "What?" I ask. "Well" you say, "I can make four meals from your two coconuts, but I could make five meals from my coconut because it is bigger".

    We can't represent that reality using the above abstraction because we had implicitly assumed that each coconut was a descrete and homogenous unit (a coconut is a coconut is a coconut) . So we sit down and invent another form of abstract maths - this might be the concept of weight or the concept of volume or the concept of displacement! So now we have to invent mathematical abstractions of these phenomina.
    Last edited by freakysid; Feb 20, 2001 at 23:30.

  25. #25
    ComDude CryingWolf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mad-onion
    Mathematics is little more than a set of concepts and rules for working with those concepts, so that was invented (or maybe conceieved would be a better word).
    However what those concepts explain was never invented, nor do i believe it was discovered...hard to say with that

    Going back to the telephoen thing, well i will use radio because it is easier to explain.
    Sound waves were not invented, although they were discovered and munipulated...to provide us with radio.
    I have to agree with the onion here. It's not whether pi = 1 if your one happens to equil my 3.1415927, then it's all good we are just speaking a different lingo. Just remember that when I owe you $3.14 and then just give you a buck. We are even now right???

    Just try pulling the pi thing on your math finals and see how far you go lol

    I would say that math is an invention of discovery. Really tell me right now, if you push old CryingWolf off the worlds tallest building/structure how long would it take before he makes a big splat??? Mankind has been pushing each other off of things for along time. So how do we prove that it takes x before we are pooring CryingWolf from his boots??? Really I don't want you to push me so for my sake please do the math. Thus the proof with out homicide.

    As for onion's radio (yes sound waves and frequency wave where discovered - The radio invented)
    Last edited by CryingWolf; Feb 20, 2001 at 23:44.
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