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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    _blank + XHTML strict?

    I was on a 7Nights posting and noticed people were discussing how target="_blank" will no longer be valid? That true. If so, they kept saying its better to use POPUPS versus a new window.

    Doesn't POPUPS require Javascript whereas _blank does not?

    Here is the link to verify what I am talking about
    http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/arch...prime_time.php

    Thanks
    Bryan

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    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Read Kevin Yank's article all about this: http://www.sitepoint.com/article/sta...ompliant-world

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    Read Kevin Yank's article all about this: http://www.sitepoint.com/article/sta...ompliant-world
    I disagree - my advice is to pay that article scant attention - because it completely misses the point.

    The target attributes has been removed from XHTML because ... you shouldn't be opening new windows at all.

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    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    I was on a 7Nights posting and noticed people were discussing how target="_blank" will no longer be valid? That true. If so, they kept saying its better to use POPUPS versus a new window.
    Yes, it's already true. XHTML Frameset and Transitional are the only ones that allow for the target attribute. It's out of XHTML 1.0 Strict and XHTML 1.1.
    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    Doesn't POPUPS require Javascript whereas _blank does not?
    Yep, but they can be made more accessible:
    HTML Code:
    <a href="newwindow.html" onclick="if (window.open(this.href, 'newwin')) return false;">New Window Link</a>
    Basically, if new windows aren't available this will open the link in the same window instead.

    Personally I don't see what the big deal is. If you like target, use XHTML Transitional. What's the problem?

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    No problem here. I mean, that is what I code in is Transitional, but if I ever move to strict, just is good to know

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    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    No problem here. I mean, that is what I code in is Transitional, but if I ever move to strict, just is good to know
    I agree, but you'd be surprised how many people get mad at that. Link targets are a very behavioral thing, which is why I think they should be done with scripting. Others don't see it that way, or like the convenience of the target attribute, when in all reality window.open() does the same exact thing if you keep the parameters to a minimum.

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    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    I think he was asking more of "how" then whether he should or not.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee
    I think he was asking more of "how" then whether he should or not.
    Oh yeah, I know But the answer is mu.

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    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    I hate this whole 'avoid new windows' movement. Claims about how it improves accessibility because people cannot use the back button when their is a new window opened... I'll make my sites accessible to those with physical, cognitive, or visual disabilities, however, I'm not going to code my sites so that retards can use them without hurting themselves...

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    I don't agree - and the analogy is inaccurate. It's more akin to a change in the traffic laws from what the UK does (where motorists have priority on minor roads) to what the US does (where pedestrians have priority) - it's a change in emphasis putting greater control in the hands of people who need it (the users). Nobody said change is easy, but if you refuse to do something just because it's not easy ... well you get no sympathy from me.

    If you don't use link targets then people have the choice. If you do use link targets you've taken that choice away.

    That's it - there's no more to it than that - all this talk about how opening sites in new windows helps users is pure BS - how are users helped by having their choices restricted and their browsing toolset diminished? Site owners open offsite links in a new window for their own benefit, and no other reason. Whether or not that's okay in itself is another issue - but please ... nobody churn out that same old lie about how it's for users' benefit, because it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    I'll make my sites accessible to those with physical, cognitive, or visual disabilities, however, I'm not going to code my sites so that retards can use them without hurting themselves...
    These are dangerous words - firstly the term "retard" is incredibly offensive, and secondly if you use the word for what it really means - a person with cognitive or learning disabilties - then you've just contradicted yourself.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Guru SteveO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    it's a change in emphasis putting greater control in the hands of people who need it (the users). Nobody said change is easy, but if you refuse to do something just because it's not easy ... well you get no sympathy from me.
    Its changing the expected behaviour which, for novice users, will be a burden. Many people have no clue how to direct a link to a new window in IE or to a new tab/window in Firefox and this may cause them to lose their page which will be frustrating for them.

    I'm not saying that taking the choice away from users is a good thing but every application you run you are accepting someone elses choices about how things work and you just adapt and become accustomed to it whereby it seems second-nature.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveO
    Its changing the expected behaviour which, for novice users, will be a burden.
    this makes no sense

    if they are novice, where did they get "expected" behaviour from?


    ... every application you run you are accepting someone elses choices about how things work and you just adapt and become accustomed to it whereby it seems second-nature.
    exactly

    which is why target is acceptable only in framesets, so that everybody that comes along after this point will learn the correct way

    only those who learned the wrong way have any re-learning to do
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
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    Expectation management

    That which is expected is governed by that which is the dominant behaviour.
    If I want to, and expect to open a link in the same window and it opens a new one, I get annoyed.
    As a user, I want that choice to be mine, and denying all users that choice in favour of a few novices who are bound to learn pretty soon anyway is a weak standpoint at best.

    If all normal, left-click links open in the same window - which is, at least in my book, "the expected behaviour", opening one in a new window - or tab, which one can't even influence through scripts or targets - through the user interface will soon become "second nature", as it should be.
    This is not a standards argument, but a user centricity one.
    Regards,
    Ronald.

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    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveO
    Its changing the expected behaviour which, for novice users, will be a burden. Many people have no clue how to direct a link to a new window in IE or to a new tab/window in Firefox and this may cause them to lose their page which will be frustrating for them.
    You'd be surprised how quickly a new user can pick up on how to open links in a new window or tab. My fiancee, a novice internet user by most standards (and a Mac-one-button-mouse user before the advent of the Web), figured out right click a long time ago and understands how to use context menus to open links in new windows. If the link does open the same window, the Back button is one of the most obvious interface elements that she can click on and that's the first thing anyone learns to use when browsing the Web.

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    Right context click thingy...

    context menus...
    Right, that's what they're called; slipped my mind, sort of. Thanks, Vinnie!
    Regards,
    Ronald.

  16. #16
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread become a why you shouldn't open links in a window. I'm curious as to why some frown upon it (besides the whole standards thing).

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    I will be honest, I am not a fan of being in a window of a site and clicking something that is an external link and staying in the same window, simply because then I have to use the back button to get back to an article I am reading and then find my place again. I like that a new window opens, then all I have to do is close it when I am done looking at the external whatever.

  18. #18
    Also available in Large Si's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    I will be honest, I am not a fan of being in a window of a site and clicking something that is an external link and staying in the same window, simply because then I have to use the back button to get back to an article I am reading and then find my place again. I like that a new window opens, then all I have to do is close it when I am done looking at the external whatever.
    I agree! When I'm sorting a website out, I tend to leave all internal links within the same window and when I want the user to view a link that isn't part of the current website, it opens a new window. It removes the chances of the user forgetting your website as when they close the new window, "OH, there's that website that was quite useful". Saying that, I am now in the habit of holding down SHIFT or CTRL when clicking links so I can keep my original position easier. But I'm a developer/coder who knows about that option... Joe Bloggs isn't as aware!
    Si
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  19. #19
    SitePoint Guru SteveO's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree. Particularly on Sitepoint when they changed over to opening links in the same window there was many times I closed the external link thinking it was a separate window and then lost my place in Sitepoint. Very frustrating until I trained myself to use Firefox and the middle mouse button.

    It is counter-intuitive and standards gone mad. Its like the UK changing overnight from driving on the left to driving on the right.

  20. #20
    Also available in Large Si's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveO
    It is counter-intuitive and standards gone mad. Its like the UK changing overnight from driving on the left to driving on the right.
    Thats a bit of an extreme!!
    Si
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  21. #21
    SitePoint Guru SteveO's Avatar
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    Yeah, well just emphasizing my point

  22. #22
    Also available in Large Si's Avatar
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    I think this is one of those "agree to disagree" moments... there are obviously people who think that opening new windows automatically is user-friendly (within reason) and those who think the opposite.

    I know I'm not going to change my way of thinking after reading this thread (and that is odd for me - SP normally opens my eyes in web design).

    Everyone seems to have valid arguments for their own opinions...

    ...actually, keep it coming - this is getting interesting!!
    Si
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  23. #23
    SQL Consultant gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    the dominant behaviour of the current world wide web is -- and i'm extrapolating from my own experience here, so this is purely anecdotal, and not to be taken as any sort of statistically relevant fact -- to open windows in the same window

    don't believe me? do your own survey
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
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  24. #24
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    I strongly feel that new windows should not be opened, and that it should be up to the user. Whether or not they know how is, in my opinion, is secondary to whether they want to. Where there's a will, there's a way, so if they want to open a new window, they will, and will figure it out if necessary.


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    A key?!!

    they even have their own key on the keyboard!!
    Ah... so that's what it's for... I begin to see the point about users not knowing how to open a new window...

    Nah, just kidding. Then again, I was talking to a good friend of mine about a certain site about our shared hobby, and the discussion went something like this:

    He: what's with the site lately? I can't see all the way down, and I miss the link to the forum! It's not even taking up the whole screen!

    Me: Oh? What browser do you use? Internet Explorer?

    He: *sheepish look*

    Me: Is there a light blue "e" in there somewhere?

    He: *recognition* Yep!

    Me: Ah, Internet Explorer. Isn't the window maximized, then?

    He: *sheepish look*

    Another friend: Does it look like this? *shows non-maximized window with IE*

    He: Right! that's it! Why does it do that?!!

    We: Oh well, couldn't tell, it does that sometimes; simply hit the button left of the "X" and you're safe.

    He: Oh, alright.

    So, maybe not all users get it straight away, but he, too, will learn. Eventually.
    Regards,
    Ronald.


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