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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compuwhiz7
    Fair enough. Like I said, I'm going to give Opera a looksee.
    You'll probably want to try the latest version, though it is a Beta (like Firefox).

    Smaller Ads for starters.

    Douglas
    Hello World

  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    You'll probably want to try the latest version, though it is a Beta (like Firefox).

    Smaller Ads for starters.

    Douglas
    Will do. I love betas.

    Off Topic:


    Why is it that only nerds use betas?

  3. #53
    Custom User Text tonyskyday's Avatar
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    I guess it has been a while since I used Opera, so perhaps it is more compatible with more web sites now. Though, perhaps that is a function of web designers not using IE-only technology as much as it is browsers like Opera and Mozilla improving.

    What's with Opera's handling of margins though? It's just weird.

    Anyway, slightly off the topic of the Opera desktop browser, Opera is finding a niche in the pda-browser market, and is even coming out with a speach-recognition browser using IBM's ViaVoice technology. So, I don't really feel sorry for them as far as their need to make a living, they seem to be doing fine without my help.

  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyskyday
    What's with Opera's handling of margins though? It's just weird.
    URL?

    Moz's handling of floats always throws me, I guess every browser has some bugs - I just can't put up with design flaws in UI.

    Douglas
    Hello World

  5. #55
    Custom User Text tonyskyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    URL?

    Moz's handling of floats always throws me, I guess every browser has some bugs - I just can't put up with design flaws in UI.

    Douglas
    I'm not sure the things you have mentioned are flaws in the UI.

    Personally, I never got into mouse guestures, so I don't care that Firefox lacks them. I'm not 100% sure what you were talking about with the 4px wide bar, and i'm sure it's great for those that use it, but for me it would be just another feature that I wouldn't use.

    I think Opera is a fine browser, but for me Firefox has all the features I need at a price I love! Honestly, the only reason I stoped using Opera is because my computer died, and by the time I got a new one and was ready to download Opera, I found Firefox's variously named predecessors.

    Perhaps for you, because you are used to the way Opera works, Firefox's UI seems inadequate, but for me everything behaves just the way I expect it to. Based on that line of reasoning, I could say that the Mac interface has flaws, since as a lifetime dos/windows user, things aren't where I expect them to be and they don't behave the way I think they will.

    Anyway, you seem far more informed on the specifics of this, these are just my opinions.

    -Tony

  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    In Opera if you want to open a new tab (or should I say, child-window) you can middle-click on the tab-bar and it'll open a blank child-window. In Mozilla, you have to rightclick->new tab. Considering how much I open new windows, this is a real pain.

    In Opera if I want to automatically-scroll through a document I can middle click and then move the cursor down. In Mozilla, if I press the middle mouse buton it'll crash.

    In Opera if you want to go back through history about 5 documents, you can hold the right mouse button and left-click 5 times. In Mozilla, you have to hold the right mouse button, left click, release the right mouse button, rehold, left, release, rehold, left, release, rehold, left, release, rehold, left, release. This is a major pain.

    In Opera if I want to disable JavaScript, I press F12 and uncheck "Enable JavaScript". Mozilla doesn't even have any kind of "quick preferences" like Opera has, so you need to look through their unorganized control panel to find the option to disable it. I don't even know if there's a shortcut to open the preferences dialog, since there is a huge lack of proper documentation included with the program.

    In Opera when you have a large amount of child-windows open, you can hold the right mouse button then use the middle wheel to bring up a list of windows from which you can choose from. In Mozilla, you don't have ANY such convenience.

    In Opera you can use spatial navigation, such as pressing 's' or 'w' will traverse you through a document by using it's H1/H2/H3 tags, meaning that you can jump from section to section with just a simple press of a key. In Mozilla, you have no such convenience.

    If you want me to continue my rants about how FireFox is hard to use, just say so, because I can name plenty more things which are annoying.


    As for Opera's weird handling of margins, I don't know what you're talking about, I haven't seen any incorrect behaviour regarding margins. Care to show me a URL where this is displayed?

  7. #57
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    I started using firefox yesterday, and I've came across nothing of what you mentioned... have you tried the latest version?

  8. #58
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Again, it's more than possible that by Sunday I will be a diehard Opera user. But Firefox can tide me over until then.

    Frankly, I'm very interested in Opera... it sounds like the Audi of browsers, where Firefox is a homemade Nissan.

    I'll probably have to see.

    Edit:


    Erm, just checked out some Opera screenshots. Very ugly, in my opinion. Does Opera support skins, and is there and equivalent of Mozilla's Luna Blue theme? I ain't touchin' it otherwise.
    Last edited by cfm; Mar 24, 2004 at 16:52. Reason: Just saw the screenshots. Ugh.

  9. #59
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compuwhiz7
    Edit:


    Erm, just checked out some Opera screenshots. Very ugly, in my opinion. Does Opera support skins, and is there and equivalent of Mozilla's Luna Blue theme? I ain't touchin' it otherwise.
    Yes Opera has skins:
    http://my.opera.com/community/custom...ex.pl?show=rec

  10. #60
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    You all forgot to mention the DOM Inspector

  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Thanks.

  12. #62
    SitePoint Evangelist Daijoubu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    In Opera if I want to automatically-scroll through a document I can middle click and then move the cursor down. In Mozilla, if I press the middle mouse buton it'll crash.

    In Opera if I want to disable JavaScript, I press F12 and uncheck "Enable JavaScript". Mozilla doesn't even have any kind of "quick preferences" like Opera has, so you need to look through their unorganized control panel to find the option to disable it. I don't even know if there's a shortcut to open the preferences dialog, since there is a huge lack of proper documentation included with the program.

    As for Opera's weird handling of margins, I don't know what you're talking about, I haven't seen any incorrect behaviour regarding margins. Care to show me a URL where this is displayed?
    #1: I still like IE implementation of middle click (what was it called already?)
    You can use up/down arrow to change speed and directions

    #2: There's a extention for this, not as powerful though

    #3: Every browsers have rendering bugs, FireFox is no exception
    Speed & scalability in mind...
    If you find my reply helpful, fell free to give me a point

  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    Don't judge the Opera interface by screenshots. You can change almost everything in it, either by customizing the toolbars with the interface, or editing INI files to move menus around (or create menus *points at his W3C menu*). Also, be careful of who's screenshots you're looking at, because Opera is a tweaker's dream and some people are really fanatical about the way they customize it (ever been to the site Literary Moose? That guy has his interface compressed down to almost 1 line at the top!). The direction that the 7.5 previews are going in with the default interface is very screwy and I've been pleading with them to change it back (I've even gave them links to over 20 people saying that it's "just not right") but it doesn't appear to be changing. Luckily, it's customizable. I have my Opera set up in a way that is similar to Internet Explorer so that my Dad can hop on without being confused as hell

    As for the skins, yep, it has skinning support. I've been wanting to learn how the skinning engine works, because I want to create a Megaman skin hehe. In the 7.5 previews, they've enabled XP theme support, so if you're on Windows XP then you can change to the Windows Theme (in Opera, not your system properties) and recieve the same theme as the rest of your Operating System. This looks lovely with my WindowBlinds skins

    I'd definately recommend that you try it out. I'd give it more than 15 minutes though, because it's not exactly 'easy'. Even after 2 years of using it, I'm STILL finding things hidden within it that makes browsing easier. I'd try it for about 2 weeks to get a good grasp of how it works. It may seem hard to use at first, but the more you use it the more you'll appreciate it. They have a pretty good set of help documentation built-in, which shows alot of the mouse and keyboard shortcuts, how to configure the panels, etc. I'd recommend that after getting used to how Opera works as a regular browser, that you dive into the help documentation and learn how the power-users use it

    Daijoubu: Regarding #1, I never knew you could do that, probably because it's illogical (in my opinion, of course). I don't see why someone would middle click to do the smooth scroll and then use their keyboard to scroll, makes more sense to just move the mouse. Regarding #3, yes I know that. I am in no-way claiming that any browser is perfect (not even my beloved Opera), and rendering problems are to be expected. But, it would be nice to see what these rendering problems are, because Opera do take their rendering engine seriously and if I can confirm the incorrect behaviour then I'll be more than happy to submit a bug report.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compuwhiz7
    Whew! This thread has really exploded! And I'm honored to see it mentioned in Featured Threads...

    ...

    Edit:


    Who moved this to CHD? Spanks...
    I did that.

    And, I did that too.


  15. #65
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    It understands XHTML unlike M$ IE, which is good enough for me also the popup blocking and tabbed browsing are good.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Thumbs up

    I see a lot of people are talking about the nifty tabbed-browsing. Opera has supported this for a very long time. It does a lot of other cool things, also. I would use opera instead, not firefox. You should get Opera 7.5 PE 3 from the beta forums and read this excellent guide: http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/7/. After this you will probably start using M2 also, Opera's sweet email-client.

    You won't be dissapointed

  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphenitry
    After this you will probably start using M2 also, Opera's sweet email-client.
    While I am going to give Opera try, M2 is out. I'm just fine on Outlook.

  18. #68
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    Hi.
    I`m using Firefox, too.
    Before that I`ve used Opera, but it was more I need. For eMails I`m using Incredimail, I don`t like chats, etc., so Opera was too much to me.

    Well... I`ve used the IE 4 or 5 months ago, for the last time. Since then it`s... well... it don`t work anymore... ^^"

    Someone said "Most websites are looking better in IE, than in Firefox". Well... when I`m building a website it`s just the opposite... ^^"

    Espacially nice to me is the highlighting, when I look at the sourcecode of a site.

  19. #69
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    Everyone missed the single most important reason to use Firefox: extensions! Check out http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/. If you're a web developer or designer there is a very cool extension called Web Developer, which lets you do stuff like outline tables, validate code, view cookie data, find broken images, resize the browser to a specific screen size and more. I also use EditCSS, which lets me edit a live style sheet and watch it change in the browser.

  20. #70
    blonde.... Sarah's Avatar
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    ohh hadn't heard of some of those - off to check them out now thanks!!!
    Regular user

  21. #71
    If it aint Dutch it aint much Kilroy's Avatar
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    Get Opera

  22. #72
    Custom User Text tonyskyday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    It may seem hard to use at first,
    So, let me get this straight:

    Good UI = hard to use at first

    Bad UI = works the way you expect it to

    That's the argument I'm hearing from the Opera buffs.

    Anyway, I've had none of the problems you point out with Firefox. I click the scoll button and move the mouse up to go up and move the mouse down to go down. No crashing invovled.

    I also like that firefox doesn't use up screen space with a tab bar unless you have multiple tabs open, and as a result, there is no tab bar to middle click on much of the time. Though I don't see what is so difficult about pressing ctrl+T to open a new tab.

    I guess the difference between you and me is that you think Opera is awesome and that Mozilla Firefox sucks (fair enough viewpoint!), whereas I think they are both good browsers, but I prefer Firefox. For one thing, all I need is a browser, I don't need all the other things.

    I also fail to see the importance of mouse gestures for me personally, especially on my home computer where my mouse has forward and back buttons on it.

    -Tony

  23. #73
    minister of propaganda silver trophy Rynoguill's Avatar
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    um, excuse me if im wrong, but doesnt opera cost money?!

    um, if this is true, why in the world would i want to pay for something, when i can do everything it can do with a browser thats free?? even ie is free, if microsoft is handing something away id rather take it than pay for something.

    and i used to have opera, didnt display a darn thing right that i wanted to look at.
    and browsing in firefox couldnt be more fluid for me. its not perfect, dont get me wrong, but its also just a .8 release. id say the best is yet to come. for free.
    rynoguill
    Ryan Guill, AKA Mark Roman

  24. #74
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyskyday
    I also like that firefox doesn't use up screen space with a tab bar unless you have multiple tabs open, and as a result, there is no tab bar to middle click on much of the time. Though I don't see what is so difficult about pressing ctrl+T to open a new tab.
    I don't know what megamanXplosion meant by the "hard at first" thing, the basics are as clear as in Firefox (if not more so). The difference for me, is that Opera goes beyond the basics. In Opera, even if you want to use multiple "tabs", you don't need to have the tab bar taking up a whole 20px of screen space. Just hold down the right mouse button, and scroll using your mouse wheel to the tab you want. F11 if you really want to make use of your screen space.

    efore that I`ve used Opera, but it was more I need. ... I don`t like chats, etc., so Opera was too much to me.
    You can't have been using it long: chat isn't even in an official release yet!

    Later,
    Douglas
    Hello World

  25. #75
    minister of propaganda silver trophy Rynoguill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    In Opera, even if you want to use multiple "tabs", you don't need to have the tab bar taking up a whole 20px of screen space. Just hold down the right mouse button, and scroll using your mouse wheel to the tab you want. F11 if you really want to make use of your screen space.
    who wants to use their mouse? switching between tabs is as easy as ctrl-tab (hey, its even got the tab key in it, for tab, dang now thats intuitive)

    and my theme in firefox has the tab bar maybe 10 px high, definately not 20 px. its just right, anything less would be hard to read. and anyway, if you dont PAY MONEY for opera, youve got that nice big rotating flashing banner add at the top, taking up real-estate.
    rynoguill
    Ryan Guill, AKA Mark Roman


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