frontend?

[sbdi]

how long do you think languages like html xml etc. will be around? the way broad band connections are poping up all around the world now and newer versions of browsers come with the flash plug in already installed how long would it take until something like flash (or flash) replace everything on the frontend

[TWTCommish]

Well, XML looks to be a replacement for HTML, so I think we'll all have to make a switchover at some point - which won't be a big deal for those who just want simple layouts, rather than DTDs and things like that.

I think XML will be okay - I don't know enough about it yet to make any serious judgements, but I definintely agree with the stricter policy concerning closing tags - I believe things will be case-sensitive as well, which I like.

I hate it when people use something like this: <A HREF="page.html">Link</A>, or like this: "<IMG SRC="image.gif">. Hopefully people will become efficient in their closing of tags, and here's hoping people switch to mostly lower-case HTML/XML - much more legible.

[qslack]

I personally think that XML will be remembered in the same way push advertising is. It will be forgotten, and used by only a few people.

I say this because most of the interest in XML is corporate interest. The real people who are working on implementing XML, the programmers, are most likely not in favor of it. The bosses of companies are ecstatic about it though.

Here's a real-world example: My dad owns a company which does most of its work on computers, and I'm a programmer. He always asks me, "So what do you think of XML?" and explains how it will be the next generation in data storage and display. "It is backed by the major companies," he says. That's where the problem is.

If Henry Ford loved cars but the people on the production line didn't, Ford would not be here today in its same form. For anything to work, you need the management and the people who actually make the stuff to agree on something.

Perl is the most popular programming language for a reason: it's free and isn't run by a company. Since Zend introduced their $6,000 compiler, 5 of my PHP-using friends have quit. They didn't want PHP to be taken over by commercial interests (Zeev Suraski and Andi Gutmans are the main PHP developers and they own Zend). You won't see anyone but companies using ASP and NT.

Just my (rather jumbled up) $.02.

[mingham]

I think that it will be a long time before flash actually "takes over" the internet. Flash is easy for viewers to watch, but it is not always so easy and affordable for web designers.

The majority of web sites on the internet today are personal and not every personal webmaster is willing to pay a bunch of money to buy flash when they can just program in HTML.

Also, people have gotten used to the way pages look now, and a change to all graphical interfaces would not be a positive for everyone.

Finally, broadband will not be in everyone's house so soon. There are still many areas where internet access is just becoming "big" and people are not all that eager to upgrade yet.

If flash does actually "take over" the internet, I'd say it would be in a long time.

[westmich]

until something like flash (or flash) replace everything on the frontend

This will never happen. Like many technologies, in the beginning of a product life cycle they tend to become quite popular and overused. Flash is great for entertainment sites, educational/tutorial sites, and promotional sites, but has little or no use in business sites. In fact, I've read that many if the Flash development community are calling for better usability standards in terms of Flash.

If Henry Ford loved cars but the people on the production line didn't, Ford would not be here today in its same form. For anything to work, you need the management and the people who actually make the stuff to agree on something.

Cars had been around for twenty years before Henry Ford used the assembly line to mass produce them. It wasn't until then that costs came down and cars became affordable to the general public.

In much the same way, XML will make data and information useful to multiple programming languages and computer platforms.

B2B is one of the fastest growing areas of the Internet today. A big chunk of the money invested in this area is going towards getting different technologies to speak to each other. One of the growing standards in this area is XML. Maybe you won't use it your personal Web site, but when a corporation looking to tie in vendors to their extranet will.

Perl is the most popular programming language for a reason: it's free and isn't run by a company.

Perl is great for creating guest books for personal home pages, is of little use in real-world Web sites.

You won't see anyone but companies using ASP and NT.

What do you base that on? Many developers who pay for hosting use ASP and NT/W2K. Many business use non-Windows development platforms.

[creole]

Perl is great for creating guest books for personal home pages, is of little use in real-world Web sites

Boy...Westmich...this is one of the few times that I have ever totally disagreed with you. That statement could not be more untrue. One high-end e-commerce website that I know of personally (www.booksamillion.com, i used to work for them) uses Perl and mySQL for their entire infrastructure.

I'm not saying it is the best language, but it is more than fast enough and more than scalable enough for a site that gets about a million hits a day like they do...

[freakysid]

Originally posted by qslack
I personally think that XML will be remembered in the same way push advertising is. It will be forgotten, and used by only a few people.

I say this because most of the interest in XML is corporate interest. The real people who are working on implementing XML, the programmers, are most likely not in favor of it. The bosses of companies are ecstatic about it though.

XML is the way and the future for *transporting* data. If you've ever experienced the pain of serialising and deserialising data for communication between COM components you will think that XML is the most brilliant idea since sliced bread. With XML you can pass a file of data between two components accross any protocol with a link embedded in the file that says "here's a link to the definition file that explains what this data is" and neither the sender or the receiver need to know *anything* about each other (ie; what platform each is operating on which effects things like the size of ints (32bit, 62bit, etc). Brilliant!

[westmich]

Originally posted by creole

Perl is great for creating guest books for personal home pages, is of little use in real-world Web sites

Boy...Westmich...this is one of the few times that I have ever totally disagreed with you. That statement could not be more untrue. One high-end e-commerce website that I know of personally (www.booksamillion.com, i used to work for them) uses Perl and mySQL for their entire infrastructure.

I'm not saying it is the best language, but it is more than fast enough and more than scalable enough for a site that gets about a million hits a day like they do...

I was feeling a little cocky this morning and I figured my comments would draw some critisizim. Are they using Perl in CGI fashion to write and append text files or do they use ModPerl and compile their programs on the server?

[creole]

to be honest...I couldn't tell you. I was working more on the design end, not the programming. I just know they had heaps of programmers coding in Perl and I think some C or C++. It was fast-like-lightning though and they were very happy with it. They were very picky too, so for them to be happy makes it good.


It would be interesting what Larry Wall (the creator of Perl) would have to say about Perl's limits.

[BC]

Originally posted by westmich

I was feeling a little cocky this morning and I figured my comments would draw some critisizim. Are they using Perl in CGI fashion to write and append text files or do they use ModPerl and compile their programs on the server?

LOL @ Westmich

I've seen some very powerful Perl programs compiled under mod_perl, as well as others used under CGI. I think the HotScripts Perl Repository is testament to Perl's usefulness not only as code for a 'dinky guestbook', but powerful applications.

Tucows uses Perl as an interface to direct users to the most appropriate search results and also re-direct to the closest mirrors. They run mod_perl

[creole]

so NAH!

[qslack]

Perl is great for creating guest books for personal home pages, is of little use in real-world Web sites - westmich

You obviously haven't used Perl. I'm a Perl programmer and I use normal executed Perl for my applications and mod_perl for my Web stuff.

All of my apps run a tiny bit slower than C but are infinitely more organized. Perl's packages, subroutines, references, and OO support are unrivaled. If you are a complete OO person like I am, then Perl is about the best language you can find. I have one Perl module (.pm) that has the functions, and writing a frontend is easy. Just provide the user interface and be a pipe for the input and output.

For the Web, Perl is also unrivaled. PHP does not have any control to the Apache API, nor does it have such a community of experienced mod_perl developers behind it. PHP tends to pick up many inexperienced developers who dilute the quality of free code available; on the other hand, almost any piece of mod_perl Perl was written carefully by a professional or serious hobbyist. Because of this, mod_perl programs tend to have fewer bugs (because excellent code is reused), run faster, and are more readable.

You won't see ANYONE programming a new content manager for their site in mod_perl: why reinvent the wheel? In PHP, where the quality of available programs and code is much less, almost everyone will make their own.

I agree, CGI Perl is really slow compared to mod_php. But if you even the tables and compare Perl and PHP both using CGI, then Perl will be faster. It's been tested several times. This is probably because the interpreter for Perl has been refined over 15 years, while PHP has only been in existence in its current form for about 3 years. Just a thought: maybe PHP is purposely slow to make people use Zend's products? I don't know, but seeing how...odd...the PHP developers and Zend have been acting together, it wouldn't be completely off the charts or unheard of.

PHP isn't good for anything but small content managers

[Nicky]

I agree that Perl is a wonderful language in many respects and it has got its pride of place on the web. But how could you say that Flash is going to take over the web However commercialised the web becomes the ideaology of a hypertext system for all will still exist. Granted it may not be hypertext anymore but I cannot beleive that it will become SO comemrcialised that those amongst use who wish to carry on creating persoanl homepages won't be able to do them easily and for free.

As t a previuos statement that was made: XML is NOT the replacement for HTML. HTML will be phased out by XHTML, with XML working alongside XHTML to create better, more portable websites.

[dzeja]

Originally posted by westmich
Perl is great for creating guest books for personal home pages, is of little use in real-world Web sites.

Slashdot is run using perl/mySQL.

[BC]

Just thought of another example (to rub it in) : my University (Monash) uses Perl to manage in real-time the student enrolment systems, including semester enrolments, update to personal details, synchronise tutorial times, etc. And it does all this in realtime for 47,000 students. Pretty cool eh? (it's compiled under CGI.pm I think, which makes it a bit slower than it should)