PHP vs. JSP

**csn** · Feb 6, 2004 16:49

Then why would you even consider VB6?

**asp_funda** · Feb 6, 2004 16:56

I said that I have been considering it for a long time now but haven't been able to find time to brush my skills in VB6.
Its just now that I think I can spare some time each week(by sleeping less

), so I thought of having a go at it. And my friend & collegue told me to consider .NET instead & have a go at it.
Looks like its the best advice he's given me ever.

**firepages** · Feb 6, 2004 19:33

how'd we get to MCAD and VB6 in a thread about JSP vs PHP ? ... oh thats right

**HarryF** · Feb 7, 2004 04:52

Going back the original question, here's a blog by a Java developer: PHP Web Projects Continue to Impress Me.

That about sums it up.

Java as a web platform is popular with companies that pay good salaries (while PHP isnt) so if you're thinking along that lines, it's a good choice. Be warned though, in learning Java the first hurdle is;

In Java, String objects are immutable...

Otherwise, if you're actually interested in building a website, choose PHP.

**M. Johansson** · Feb 7, 2004 05:04

During the last few weeks, I've been looking into Java as a platform, priming for my move to Mac. It looks like Java/JSP is not as good as ASP.NET for web development, however, there is something for Java that negates that... Coldfusion MX. Coldfusion is no longer it's own language, but a productivity layer on top of Java, and it actually looks really, really good. Maybe even better than ASP.NET - haven't decided yet. Check out the technology introduction video on Macromedias web site.

Also, Ben Forta, their technology evangelist, looks really cool.

**firepages** · Feb 7, 2004 09:39

Cold Fusion on a Mac ... in 12 months that picture might just be you Mattias

**vgarcia** · Feb 7, 2004 09:43

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

Coldfusion

Why'd you have to bring that into the conversation?

But yeah, CF is actually pretty easy, depending on how you take to a tag-based syntax. Its bigger strengths (in CFMX anyway) are Flash Remoting and being able to communicate with Java objects, so you can still keep your business logic in classes and out of .cfm pages and you can still use Web services

.

**coo_t2** · Feb 7, 2004 10:04

So is CF written in Java. Can you drop down and code in Java if you want?

--ed

**vgarcia** · Feb 7, 2004 10:14

Originally Posted by coo_t2

So is CF written in Java. Can you drop down and code in Java if you want?

Yep. Then you can call the Java object from CF.
http://www.markme.com/cantrell/archives/003224.cfm

**asp_funda** · Feb 7, 2004 11:55

I think that Java classes can be used instead of Component DLLs with ASP if Microsoft JVM is installed on the server. I read something about it on the 4Guysfromrolla website sometime back, however I was pre-occupied with something else & didn't follow it.

**HarryF** · Feb 7, 2004 14:16

During the last few weeks, I've been looking into Java as a platform, priming for my move to Mac. It looks like Java/JSP is not as good as ASP.NET for web development, however, there is something for Java that negates that... Coldfusion MX. Coldfusion is no longer it's own language, but a productivity layer on top of Java, and it actually looks really, really good.

Think MAC is become a very popular platform with developers - kind of a compromise (or best of worlds) between Linux and Windows. If I could spare the cash...

You might also want to look into Java Server Faces (there's a tutorial somewhere on Suns site) which is meant to be Suns answer to ASP.NET.

Coldfusion...? Sounds like you're about to go full circle, when you discover that Macs come with PHP pre-installed

Interesting is Macromedia are another of the companies working with Sun on that spec I mentioned.

**csn** · Feb 7, 2004 14:23

What's the job market like for somebody who has only a .Net MCSD?

**asp_funda** · Feb 7, 2004 14:26

Originally Posted by HarryF

If I could spare the cash...

Yeah, I've wondered all these years that why people shell out a bomb for something with just good looks, & low software & other support on everything. Then I had a go at an old Mac some 3-4 years back & I was even more convinced that this is something I don't want.
But then after a look at the new OS X Panther, & the new Apple Notebook, I thought, "hey, this thing is sure flashy enough, it sure is one of most beautiful things on the planet".

But right on there Harry, Macs do cost a bomb.

**asp_funda** · Feb 7, 2004 14:30

Originally Posted by csn

What's the job market like for somebody who has only a .Net MCSD?

Only a .NET MCSD & no other qualification? Dunno, but may have some worth since a lot of employers looking for .NET coders won't mind, unless they get an applicant who also has something other than .NET.

As far as I've seen, a lone qualification doesn't have any weight for you if you are looking for a job. Guys with multiple skills(& specialisation in 1 or 2) will always be preferred. So, something more than just a single qualification improves your chances in the Job Market.

**M. Johansson** · Feb 7, 2004 17:48

Originally Posted by asp_funda

Yeah, I've wondered all these years that why people shell out a bomb for something with just good looks, & low software & other support on everything. Then I had a go at an old Mac some 3-4 years back & I was even more convinced that this is something I don't want.
But then after a look at the new OS X Panther, & the new Apple Notebook, I thought, "hey, this thing is sure flashy enough, it sure is one of most beautiful things on the planet".

But right on there Harry, Macs do cost a bomb.

They are not THAT expensive, when you consider the amount of software included and the quality of the hardware. But yeah, they are not exactly low-end. Anyway, I'm really tired of failing hardware, incompatible drivers, and relatively lame operating system of PCs. I'm willing to give Macs a go to see if they are better at it.

You might also want to look into Java Server Faces (there's a tutorial somewhere on Suns site) which is meant to be Suns answer to ASP.NET.

JavaServer Faces is really a step in the right direction. Is there an IDE that handles them well yet?

**vgarcia** · Feb 7, 2004 19:08

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

JavaServer Faces is really a step in the right direction. Is there an IDE that handles them well yet?

The spec isn't final yet, so I'd have to guess that no IDE uses it yet.
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/javaserverfaces/index.jsp

**asp_funda** · Feb 8, 2004 11:56

What about Oracle JDeveloper?

Edit:

Doesn't the latest version support JavaServer Faces?

**pippo** · Feb 9, 2004 01:57

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

During the last few weeks, I've been looking into Java as a platform, priming for my move to Mac. It looks like Java/JSP is not as good as ASP.NET for web development, however, there is something for Java that negates that... Coldfusion MX. Coldfusion is no longer it's own language, but a productivity layer on top of Java, and it actually looks really, really good. Maybe even better than ASP.NET - haven't decided yet. Check out the technology introduction video on Macromedias web site.

Also, Ben Forta, their technology evangelist, looks really cool.

Thanks for the link,
I cannot run CFMX on my celeron400/128mbram because it's slowed my machine.
( in fact I'm running out of their requirements )

Mattias,
are you going to blog somewhere your Mac/CF experience ?
That'd be cool, IMHO.

Andrea

**Mike Borozdin** · Feb 17, 2004 05:14

Ha-ha! We are here in on www.SitePoint.com, on the site that is dedicated to web-design, web-coding, web-promotion and etc., but it wasn't planned to be a general development site where you can discuss programming languages and technologies that are used for creating descktop, server and other software, of course you can still discuss server-side technologies there but mainly people would discuss developing big applications and not home-made scripts.
But now I want to point out the following things:

Java servlets/JSP hosting isn't more expensive than simple Unix hosting is, for example but HSP has servelets/JSP powered by Resin engine and I pay just $72 a year for 60 MB with JSP, servlets, PHp, Perl, Python, MySQL, PgSQL, SSH
I noticed that people who defended PHP didn't mention a very importand thing - PHP is very easy at deployment - all you need is a webserver and PHP intepreter, of course you can say that if you want to use Java it won't require to much software to install - JDK, J2EE application server, but you have to have to deal with JDBC drivers of your database, then you have to recompile your Java classes when or even re-pack it to Java archives when modifying it and so on.
PHP lacks standarts and decent frameworks? I think when a team develops a corporate portal that intoduce their own coding standarts and their framework that they use in many corporate applications.
Then if the man who asks about PHP and JSP wants to develop applications for money, I would suggest to advise him to learn that technology that can bring him good money, so PHP isn't a good choice from this point of view

**asp_funda** · Feb 17, 2004 12:28

Good on there Mike!!

But you jumped up on Java a bit. Pre-Compiled JDBC drivers are available. You just have to place them in the required dir.
Most JDBC drivers come with the Tomcat binaries. Just mySQL needs to be obtained from www.mysql.com.

Also, only Servlets need to be compiled & uploaded again. That's why people are switching for JSPs. Its also compiled in a servlet but only by the Server & that too, only once. And they are easy to maintain.

I prefer JSP over PHP, but that may be b'coz I know JSP better & I'm barely PHP literate.

**Mike Borozdin** · Feb 18, 2004 00:11

Originally Posted by asp_funda

Also, only Servlets need to be compiled & uploaded again. That's why people are switching for JSPs. Its also compiled in a servlet but only by the Server & that too, only once. And they are easy to maintain.

But I know that JSP & servlets is a great bundle, especially when you implement MVC pattern, so you use JSP for the view layer and retrieve most of data by using Java Beans.

**Mike Borozdin** · Feb 18, 2004 00:19

Then, if you use only JSP without servlets and Beans, there's nearly no difference between your JSP and PHP, they are both can be mixed with HTML, they don't require compilation and so on. Sure, JSP is Java and you use Java class library andJSP must be faster than PHP, but if you speak about differences between programming techniques you use when you code with JSP and PHP, I will tell you that there's no difference between coding methods of these two technologies unless you use Beans and so on. But on other hand, those Beans can be implemended with PHP as well.

Actually, it all depends on what you need to do, if you just need to create a script for your website, go with PHP and pure JSP, if you HSP has it, of course, but if you want to be become a professional developer who does it for money, don't waste your time on learning PHP, you will pick it up if necessary later, but straightly go with JSP/servlets - you'll find a great job knowing these things, and if you are a project manager you should consider knownledge of your teams, their prior experience, platform and so on.

**asp_funda** · Feb 18, 2004 12:16

Ahem, a few points to clear Mike.

Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin

Then, if you use only JSP without servlets and Beans, there's nearly no difference between your JSP and PHP, they are both can be mixed with HTML, they don't require compilation and so on.

Who said JSP isn't compiled? Wrong Wrong Wrong. JSP is COMPILED. Its using Java as its language & is not interpreted, its compiled. Ofcourse, we as developers, don't compile it. We just save the file as *.jsp & then call it through browser. Now the Server(like Tomcat) compiles the JSP file only if its been changed since its last change. Its compiled into a class file(a servlet) & then its code is parsed to display results. Its just that the compiled class file is stored in a directory accessible to server only.

Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin

Sure, JSP is Java and you use Java class library andJSP must be faster than PHP, but if you speak about differences between programming techniques you use when you code with JSP and PHP, I will tell you that there's no difference between coding methods of these two technologies unless you use Beans and so on.

JSP is faster than PHP because when JSP files are called, the compiled servlets are used to send results to browser. That way, execution of code is fast since the servlet class file is already in binary form. While with PHP, its same as other scripted langs like ASP etc which are interpreted. These are parsed by the server everytime they are requested. They are first converted into binaries & then executed. So its a 2 step process & with compiled langs like JSP & ASP.NET, its a 1 step process.
So you can guess which one is fast.
Also, without beans too, JSP has great power, power of Java, which PHP lacks, ie., the power of a proper language.

In a simpler tone, its
Java was meant to be used on client machines & was made powerful just like other langs used on Desktops like C, C++, etc. It wasn't meant to be used like JSP/Servlets etc. But its used & thus it harnesses the power which was incorporated in it.
PHP was meant to be built for server-side scripting just like ASP etc. So, not much power was incorporated in it, just like ASP etc.

That's where it looses out, I think.

**Mike Borozdin** · Feb 18, 2004 23:58

Originally Posted by asp_funda

Ahem, a few points to clear Mike.

Who said JSP isn't compiled? Wrong Wrong Wrong. JSP is COMPILED. Its using Java as its language & is not interpreted, its compiled. Ofcourse, we as developers, don't compile it. We just save the file as *.jsp & then call it through browser. Now the Server(like Tomcat) compiles the JSP file only if its been changed since its last change. Its compiled into a class file(a servlet) & then its code is parsed to display results. Its just that the compiled class file is stored in a directory accessible to server only.

JSP is faster than PHP because when JSP files are called, the compiled servlets are used to send results to browser. That way, execution of code is fast since the servlet class file is already in binary form. While with PHP, its same as other scripted langs like ASP etc which are interpreted. These are parsed by the server everytime they are requested. They are first converted into binaries & then executed. So its a 2 step process & with compiled langs like JSP & ASP.NET, its a 1 step process.
So you can guess which one is fast.
Also, without beans too, JSP has great power, power of Java, which PHP lacks, ie., the power of a proper language.

In a simpler tone, its
Java was meant to be used on client machines & was made powerful just like other langs used on Desktops like C, C++, etc. It wasn't meant to be used like JSP/Servlets etc. But its used & thus it harnesses the power which was incorporated in it.
PHP was meant to be built for server-side scripting just like ASP etc. So, not much power was incorporated in it, just like ASP etc.

That's where it looses out, I think.

Thank you for your clarification!!!

**coo_t2** · Feb 19, 2004 10:51

Originally Posted by asp_funda

JSP is faster than PHP because when JSP files are called, the compiled servlets are used to send results to browser. That way, execution of code is fast since the servlet class file is already in binary form. While with PHP, its same as other scripted langs like ASP etc which are interpreted. These are parsed by the server everytime they are requested. They are first converted into binaries & then executed. So its a 2 step process & with compiled langs like JSP & ASP.NET, its a 1 step process.

You got some benchmarks? I'd like to see JSP and ASP.NET benchmarked against PHP with the Zend Accelerator installed. If JSP and ASP.NET are faster, I bet the difference is negligible.

--ed

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