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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    We had the O'Reilly Factor, now we have the IE Factor

    This is a pretty good read over at stopdesign. Check it out

    http://www.stopdesign.com/

    Bryan

    Last edited by Kevin Yank; Feb 4, 2004 at 00:14.

  2. #2
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
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    The permalink is http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/01/26/ie_factor.html.

    For posterity's sake

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    sorry, it was the first one to come up on his site

  4. #4
    Always A Novice bronze trophy
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    wow, nice article.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Great article! And people wonder why their site breaks in non-IE browsers when they build their site using IE. As I constantly preach, when designing a site, don't use IE until the final testing phase, IE will invariably lead one down a slippery slope. I can't say how many times I've had valid code work in everything but IE. What is really annoying is when IE 5.5 follows the rules correctly and IE 6 gets the same rule wrong. I've actually gone to sometimes calling special style sheets for IE as follows:

    <!--[if IE 5]>
    <link href="/stylesheets/IE5.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
    <![endif]-->
    <!--[if IE 6]>
    <link href="/stylesheets/IE6.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
    <![endif]-->


    It validates and no browser but IE will respond to it. This a great for adding just a couple of fixes to classes to address IE only issues.
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  6. #6
    Always A Novice bronze trophy
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    KLB, I have never even thought of doing that, thats awsome, so then how would you call up another stylesheet if they are not using IE?

  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe
    KLB, I have never even thought of doing that, thats awsome, so then how would you call up another stylesheet if they are not using IE?
    First call your normal stylesheet that is designed to work correctly in browsers that properly follow specs. Then you call special stylesheets that ONLY address the few issues that the various versions of IE have. While there may be dozens of style instructions in the primary stylesheet, each of the IE stylesheets should only have a small number of instructions that rectify specific browser related issues. Remember that the "cascading" part of CSS means that you can keep applying multiple instructions for the exact same style call. The last instruction called is the one that ultimately is applied.
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  8. #8
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    Can i check whether it works for the multiple IE?
    I tried to test it, but failed...

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    It's quite a good article. So good, in fact, that it finally convinced me to abandon IE once and for all.

    Off Topic:


    Firebird is a temporary measure until I get my Mac. I intend to be using Safari at that point.


    I still think the O'Reilly Factor is considerably worse and more disturbing. That's all I'll say on the matter, though.

  10. #10
    Always A Novice bronze trophy
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    Whats safari like?

  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Nice and sleek. It uses the KHTML engine, so it renders almost identically to Konquerer and similarly to Geck-based browsers.

  12. #12
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    call me jaded, but i was quite unimpressed by the article...so much so, in fact, that i was about to comment on it with something along the lines of "welcome to our world...glad you could join us".

    oh well, just the usual cynical me, i guess...
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  13. #13
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    call me jaded, but i was quite unimpressed by the article...so much so, in fact, that i was about to comment on it with something along the lines of "welcome to our world...glad you could join us".

    oh well, just the usual cynical me, i guess...
    No, you're just ahead of the pack.

  14. #14
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    It's annoying but when 95% of your traffic is from IE based browsers what can you do?

    The worst of it is that people just don't understand that it is the browsers fault and not yours.

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    SitePoint Enthusiast blindpete's Avatar
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    WOW I'm rather new to CSS and thought it was just me :-)
    -Pete

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlimeyUK
    It's annoying but when 95% of your traffic is from IE based browsers what can you do?

    The worst of it is that people just don't understand that it is the browsers fault and not yours.
    So if 95% of the traffic is from IE based users, shouldn't you be designing for them (minus any IE only special effects of course!!!), then tweak it for the other 5% and NOT design for the 5% others, then bang your head against a wall to get it right for the vast majority of users???

    This is NOT about "IE is the best/worst browser" it is about satisfying the majority of your users, and accomodating the others.

  17. #17
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John
    So if 95% of the traffic is from IE based users, shouldn't you be designing for them (minus any IE only special effects of course!!!), then tweak it for the other 5% and NOT design for the 5% others, then bang your head against a wall to get it right for the vast majority of users???
    No. Since IE follows the specs to a lesser degree than other browsers, you'll feel more frustration going with the method you posted than by starting with a compliant browser and making tweaks for IE. Coding for IE first makes sense on the surface, but in practice I've always worked faster going the other way around.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Zealot Octal's Avatar
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    Plus you're less likely to get into bad habits
    Octal - All your base-8 belong to us
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    Willing is not enough, we must do." - Bruce Lee

  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I can see both your points. Trouble is, I've done it IE first and others second. If it doesn't work in IE I try something else that does work, which usually happens to work in the others as well. In the example given in the article, starting with IE would have resulted in a solution that worked in the other browsers too. Rather than work on happily for weeks then suddenly grind to a halt in a panic. However, I might try your method next time - what do I have to loose if it's just a practice design (having just sold my last practice design, I've got a lot to gain :-) ) And I have to admit, I've had to alter things to get Mozilla etc to accept things.

  20. #20
    Always A Novice bronze trophy
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    Im having trouble with that now, I have been going coding for IE oblivious to the fact of all its problems.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Zealot Octal's Avatar
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    If you're aware of the fact IE is bugged and as a result you're not quite coding to standard specifications then you may be ok.

    However if you are oblivious to it all then you are in for a nasty shock if/when Microsoft start playing nicely or a client complains that there site doesn't work in NN...
    Octal - All your base-8 belong to us
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  22. #22
    Always A Novice bronze trophy
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    One reason why you should be involved with a web master forum

  23. #23
    SitePoint Member slicksno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe
    One reason why you should be involved with a web master forum
    That's exactly why I'm here.

    I am working through these issues myself. I actually started developing with IE first because that is what I am familiar with. Now trying to get my CSS pages to look nice in Moz, Opera, NN, at first was a pain because I was used to IE. But then I started from scratch and developed a css for other browsers and was supprised at how much easier it was. Almost everything I wanted it to do it did without any problems. I was supprised but then disappointed because IE is so much of the traffic. I guess I never realized how buggy IE was, I just thought that was par for the course.

    I am definitely going to try developing for others first and then iron out the IE factor afterwards to see the difference...

  24. #24
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slicksno
    I am definitely going to try developing for others first and then iron out the IE factor afterwards to see the difference...
    At first you might experience some frustration, but in time you will find it much easier and you'll have much fewer cross browser issues. In regards to my previously mentioned method of feeding specific stylesheets to MSIE 5 & 6, when all is said and done, normally out of a couple hundred CSS instructions there should only be a few instructions in the CSS files for MSIE.

    Common tactics I use when developing are:
    • Always use the same system of measurement (e.g. px) for defining various sizes.
    • Always define both padding and margins.
    • Always use "text-align:left" (or right for right to left languages) for the body tag.
    • Always use "hspace=0" within IMG tags as different browsers have a different default setting for this. In particular MSIE 5 is different than other browsers including MSIE 6.
    • Avoid defining "width:100%" as this can cause issues with MSIE 5.


    Common issues I see are:
    • The CSS instruction "vertical-align" is interpreted slightly differently by MSIE 5 & 6 compared to other browsers (especially if numeric measurements are used).
    • MSIE 5 handles borders differently from other browsers. For example if <DIV style="width:40px;border:1px solid #8A8A8A;">Bla</div> were defined, under MSIE 5 the outside edge to outside edge of the bordered box would be 40px with any other browser (including MSIE 6) it would be 42px.
    • MSIE 5 & 6 have improperly implemented the CSS instruction "position".

    This list isn't compressive; it just represents the common irritations I have observed.
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  25. #25
    SitePoint Zealot
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    <sarcasm>
    Why can't we all just go back to tables?
    </sarcasm>

    Makes me wonder. Really!
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