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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Why are we so obsessed with NN4?

    Why, tell me why! Am i missing the point, why do we care what our websites look like in NN4, or the bugs that occur. Do millions of people still use it, is it a large % of people who visit our sites?

    Why!

  2. #2
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    We're still interested in NN4? I didn't get that memo!

    Seriously though, unless you have an abnormally high percentage of NN4 users hitting your site (the threshhold for "abnormal" should be set by yourself or those in control of the sites you develop on; for me it's between 5-10%), I wouldn't worry about it too much. If people can still see your content in NN4 and use the site to even a basic degree you should be fine.

  3. #3
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    I have not seen anyone obsessed with NS4, lately. (I don't know what NN4 is, though)
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    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    (I don't know what NN4 is, though)
    Netscape Navigator 4

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Everywhere i go i seem to see NN4 hacks, work arounds, bugs, maybe its just me lol.

  6. #6
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    I posted some analysis on http://www.sitepointforums.com/showthread.php?t=144945 that may assist.
    John
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard Dangermouse's Avatar
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    I was reading through 'Designing With Web Standards' and he mentions NN4 + DOM, using alternate style sheets etc, but he also said its because companies use NN4 alot, and dont update their browsers. Kinda explains it

  8. #8
    The CSS Clinic is open silver trophybronze trophy
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    Hi,

    I think you have to make a decision based on your expected userbase etc. If you're designing for institutions (such as universities, open universities, etc) i've been told that they are the worst offenders for updating their browsers and therefore you may need to support them.

    However I'm of the opinion that if no-one supported them then they'd soon change their browsers. So it's our fault for supporting them .

    I don't believe in the argument that software should be supported forever. In the computer world things move very quickly and consumers should be aware of this or made aware of it. ( A browser is just for christmas not for life.)

    It seems pointless to support outdated browers when it is so easy to download mozilla etc and experience the web as it should be.

    It really is no excuse for companies not to upgrade, it's not difficult - it's just lazy and they can't be bothered if theres no real benefit. If a company starts loosing business then they will soon change their minds. I used to run a small packaging company so I know how business works and what drives it.

    On the other hand I still can't work out why I can't get my zx81 connected to the internet. It has a massive 16k ram (I bought the extension) but microsoft office won't fit on it either.

    Paul

  9. #9
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    One of the problems with NN4 is that it is also a configuring environment - and there's a whole load of legacy code around in some institutions. This has been known about for 2-3 years. However unless anyone has knowledge of large or significant institutions using such code then it is time that it was put out to grass.
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  10. #10
    SQL Consultant gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    r937's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    If people can still see your content in NN4 and use the site to even a basic degree you should be fine.
    this statement hits the nail right on the head

    there's a wonderful and very simple method for continuing to "support" NN4 without losing any more sleep over it

    step 1: use @import for your style sheet
    step 2: go to step 1

    if you are doing anything more complicated than that, you're wasting your time
    rudy.ca | @rudydotca
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    was reading through 'Designing With Web Standards' and he mentions NN4 + DOM, using alternate style sheets etc, but he also said its because companies use NN4 alot, and dont update their browsers. Kinda explains it
    The company I worked for for only 8 days had NN4 throughout their entire system. Even though it wasn't even web related, the boss tried to view my site in nn4 and said it didn't appear to be working correctly that is because I didn't have the nn4 stylesheet method implemented, so he got a jumbled mess

  12. #12
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937
    there's a wonderful and very simple method for continuing to "support" NN4 without losing any more sleep over it

    step 1: use @import for your style sheet
    step 2: go to step 1
    There is a slightly more complex method that could be used - already posted at http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...41#post1049741

    Needs testing.

    It's not browser sniffing, just gives the mesage to browsers that cannot @import.

    I can't test it at the moment - I'm in the mid point of rebuilidng my PC after (of all things) a commercially availble accessibility program I'm testing for the Uni, decided not to install correctly or uninstall validly and screwed the booting of my home box!

    Doncha just LURVE it when this happens - especially when all the support lines are closed down for Christmas!
    John
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  13. #13
    SQL Consultant gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    r937's Avatar
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    john, that's a fairly common extension of the basic @import concept

    it used to be known as the "nyah nyah" or please upgrade method, but considerate webmasters have grown beyond that, and usually do not do anything quite so user-hostile any more

    after all, any NN4 users who surf today's web are likely already painfully aware of their browser's shortcomings, and do not need to be constantly reminded of it

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard trampt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangermouse
    I was reading through 'Designing With Web Standards' and he mentions NN4 + DOM, using alternate style sheets etc, but he also said its because companies use NN4 alot, and dont update their browsers. Kinda explains it
    Over the last year or two I have been a firm believer in the fact if no one makes special hacks for NN4 users then they will be forced to finally upgrade since nothing will work correctly for them. So I don't bother doing anything special for NN4 as far as my designs go, but I also make it a point to tell my design clients that I don't support designing for NN4 before I get started. None of them really care either.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    I agree with the404.com, I no longer go out of my way to support older browsers on many of my sites. On some sites, I might give them a once over if there is a business reason to. On other sites I simply program as if NN4 no longer existed. I know a lot of browsers, proxies and bots spoof NN4 so I don't do use any special browser detection routines to block NN4, I just let them suffer the consequences of not updating. NN4 is what, 7 years old? I think this is well beyond a reasonable support shelf life.
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard trampt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    I agree with the404.com, I no longer go out of my way to support older browsers on many of my sites. On some sites, I might give them a once over if there is a business reason to. On other sites I simply program as if NN4 no longer existed. I know a lot of browsers, proxies and bots spoof NN4 so I don't do use any special browser detection routines to block NN4, I just let them suffer the consequences of not updating. NN4 is what, 7 years old? I think this is well beyond a reasonable support shelf life.
    and the villagers rejoiced. HOORAY!

  17. #17
    SitePoint Enthusiast irishstu's Avatar
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    anyone think most of the 5% or so of people who use NN4 are web designers checking their sites because 5% or so of people use NN4?

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Actually I'd bet that most of the NN4 "users" are bots and proxies spoofing NN4. The next biggest group that accounts for NN4 hits would be web designers.
    Ken Barbalace: EnvironmentalChemistry.com (Blog, Careers)
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  19. #19
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishstu
    anyone think most of the 5% or so of people who use NN4 are web designers checking their sites because 5% or so of people use NN4?
    That's actually all of the NN4 hits on our site at work. We get about 1 out of 1000 hits for NN4. We actually have 8 times as many Opera users as NN4 users.

  20. #20
    Pointiest Petitions carrotflowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishstu
    anyone think most of the 5% or so of people who use NN4 are web designers checking their sites because 5% or so of people use NN4?

  21. #21
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    Like the404.com, I quit supporting NS4 a while ago and tell my clients I don't support it. That said, I also tell my clients, I will ensure that their content is available (albeit uglier than sin) in NS4, jic.

    I usually use the @import method, works well, makes the site pretty where it counts and ugly, where well...it has to be. LOL

    Nobody seems to care and if MS can quit supporting Win98 which is 5 or 6 years old, designers can quit supporting NS4!

    JMO

    Diana
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