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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    Anyway to hide tables, but not content

    I want to know if you can hide the stylesheets on a table based page the same way you can a css based page. Meaning, if you want your information to show up period in NN4 or a screenreader, you turn off the styles. Well, in a table based page, you still have tables, table rows, and cells holding the information. So intead of having the stacking order of all the content, things are still spaced across the page. Is it possible to turn off the tables, cells, and rows without turning off the content INSIDE them. If information is still in a table or a cell that is spaced across a page, can a screen reader, cell phone, ect.. still read it?

    Thanks
    Bryan

  2. #2
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    Is it possible to turn off the tables, cells, and rows without turning off the content INSIDE them
    if i understand you correctly, the answer would be no. you could use some kind of server-side processing that strips all table-related tags before outputting the page...but i'm not sure if this would be worth the hassle...
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  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    Ok, so if I remove all styling from a tables based site, can the information still be rendered fine in other electronic devices?

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    it sounds like you want all the advantages of a css-p design but you want to take the easy way out and use tables for layout. I think you need to choose one way or the other. I would reccomend going tableless, it might take longer to get it right but you'll learn a lot, and it will probably save you time on your future designs.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    I agree rdbl, and yes I guess I am looking for that. Originally I started with css but with all the talk of how ITS OK to use a hybrid layout.

    It now makes me wonder, is hybrid even good for accessibility? Yea, you can turn stylesheets off, but will all the information still render in other electronic devices properly? What are the disadvantages of even using a "LIGHT" table design?

    Thanks
    Bryan

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    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    *bump*

  7. #7
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    Use descriptions for your table cells to assist screen readers and use <th> for your headings (if it's tabular data).

    If you want to setup a print stylesheet, wrap the text within another div, hide tables and then make that div visable in your stylesheet.

    Just depends on what exactly you're trying to do, you can't really have the best of both worlds.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    so basically everything would look like this

    <table>
    <tr>
    <td><div>blah</div></td>
    </tr>
    </table>

  9. #9
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    you don't need to wrap the content of a TD in another DIV, if that's all you're doing...you can assign IDs, classes etc just to the TD itself
    re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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  10. #10
    Super Ninja Monkey Travis's Avatar
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    Well it wouldn't be bad for NN4 to get an unstyled layout but still get the frames, I don't think. Browsers that don't support tables will show them the same as a CSS-P layout (lynx, for example). I don't think screen readers or embedded/PDA browsers would have a problem either
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    I thought screenreaders would have a problem with table, td, tr tags because it doesn't necessarily allow certain content to be read left to right, up and down, or one after the other as it would in a CSS layout.

  12. #12
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    I thought screenreaders would have a problem with table, td, tr tags because it doesn't necessarily allow certain content to be read left to right, up and down, or one after the other as it would in a CSS layout.
    If you take into consideration that screenreaders mostly base themselves around IE does this throw some light on understanding the problems?
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard jag5311's Avatar
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    sure

  14. #14
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    With a bit of an effort it is very possible to make a hybrid design that makes sense read left to right, top to bottom.

    And about all that talk about what's ok or not... who cares? You have to do what's good for you, for your client and especially for your visitors. Let me quote Eric Meyer, one of the most respected CSS guru's in the world in a recent entry in his blog:
    As for CSS-P, of course it has limitations. So does table-based layout. The question is which set of limitations you're willing to accept, and conversely which features are more important to your current project. I still fail to understand why people have to treat everything as being a binary situation. It's not a question of only using tables, or only using CSS, for layout, forever and ever amen. Some projects do well with one, some with the other, and some call for both in the same layout. I don't know how many times I've said this over the years, but I guess I'm saying it again.
    I can't say it better than that!

    Rik
    Last edited by Zoef; Nov 23, 2003 at 11:00.
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  15. #15
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag5311
    I thought screenreaders would have a problem with table, td, tr tags because it doesn't necessarily allow certain content to be read left to right, up and down, or one after the other as it would in a CSS layout.
    as long as you make sure the table linearises properly, screenreaders pose no more problems than any other device.
    test it in lynx to see if it linearises the way it should.
    re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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