SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 136
  1. #1
    SitePoint Enthusiast mind21_98's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Inside, away from the light.
    Posts
    88
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Do anti-CSS people have a point?

    I came across this page while reading Usenet:

    http://www.decloak.com/Products/Drea...sOrLayers.aspx

    To me, it comes off more as a long insane rant rather than anything coherent. Does he really have a point?
    -Mooneer
    Thoughtbug Hosting: Hosting shouldn't require any thought.

  2. #2
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Svíţjóđ
    Posts
    4,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No

    Edit:


    ... this new tool CSS
    New?
    Cascading Style Sheets, level 1
    W3C Recommendation 17 Dec 1996 ...

  3. #3
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Roxbury/Boston
    Posts
    479
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mind21_98
    To me, it comes off more as a long insane rant rather than anything coherent. Does he really have a point?
    I don't see that he does have a point. Other than he hates CSS. I also don't see that he even knows it very well either. Looks like another one who doesn't understand it and therefore, it is CSS that sucks -- not his skills with it. Go figure.

    Edit:

    tell me about it, I'm may be new to table-less design, but css is not a new thing to me either
    Last edited by firegryphon3207; Oct 13, 2003 at 14:31.
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    tinyplanet.org <--a nifty spot.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Wizard davidjmedlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN USA
    Posts
    1,688
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I love his spelling of "INTEGATION" in the header of the article.

    FULL CSS makes surfing FASTER
    MYTH. FALSE. UNPROVEN.
    Hang on a sec, if it's unproven, that implies that it hasn't been proven false, either.

    HAS an Independent ROI ever been done?
    RETURN ON INVESTMENT (ROI)
    Seems to be throwing around some buzz words to make himself sound smart.

    EASIER TO MAINTAIN web site with a CSS site in the LONG RUN
    FALSE
    Well, I suppose that's a matter of opinion. Ignorance can be deadly to your IQ.

    Separation of Structure and Content via CSS makes things more organized.
    UNPROVEN. Just how does this make a web page more organized? Does this really save time?
    He's obviously not a programmer. At least, not a good one.

    It's millions of times cheaper and faster to have a single programmer update a popular screen reader or non-visual browser to look for that ID attribute in the <td> tag instead of having millions of web designers in the entire world do a complete redesign the entire web site.
    Sounds like he'll pay me a million bucks or so to let him work for me, huh? If it's millions of times cheaper, why not? How much can his work be worth?

    Overall, this is a poorly written article, with very little thought put into it. There are about a million holes in it that I could see just from scanning his main points.

    I haven't quite converted to 100% pure CSS yet, but I use it a lot for normal layout and design and just doing that much makes site maintenance a lot easier. Besides, I personally think that only changing one file in order to change the entire look of the site makes everything exponentially more flexible and much more valuable.

    Verdict: This guys a first class nut job that needs to get a new job... (Flipping burgers at McNastys maybe?)

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    The Central Plains
    Posts
    3,304
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    same ol' arguments from anybody dragging their feet into learning something new. half or more of the VB6 crowd did it when VB.Net was released as one example. and they give the same arguments. it's basically, "the old version works, why should i learn something new", so they don't even try.

  6. #6
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Roxbury/Boston
    Posts
    479
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by davidjmedlock
    (Flipping burgers at McNastys maybe?)
    No way I'd want him touching my DIB (Death In a Bag)!
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    tinyplanet.org <--a nifty spot.

  7. #7
    011521 dbalsdon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    North Of Scotland
    Posts
    444
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    # TABLES are for TABULAR DATA and not meant for Layout whereas CSS is more suited for this.
    # Last time I checked, most web sites use a database. Hence, tabular data. Furthermore, there was typically more than one column in a database. Thus, ROWS and COLUMNS. Otherwise why even use a database?

    And, as far as I know, the shopping cart has at least 2 columns, the name of the product and the price.

    Thus, if you are going to build a web site, you are going to need tabular data in the first place, and if not now, it will eventually.

    Thus, this totally defeats the using CSS in the first place.
    sorry... it might just be because i'm tired, but thats the most confusing thing i've ever read.. i have absolutely NO idea what he's trying to say, or where hes going with it. could somebody please try to translate it into something that i can understand??

    Edit:


    this is the worst article i've ever read btw....
    Daniel Balsdon
    My Site

  8. #8
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Roxbury/Boston
    Posts
    479
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dbalsdon
    sorry... it might just be because i'm tired, but thats the most confusing thing i've ever read.. i have absolutely NO idea what he's trying to say, or where hes going with it. could somebody please try to translate it into something that i can understand??
    he's saying that a database is tabular, and therefore info from a database should be displayed in a table. it's a crock, but that's where he's going with it
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    tinyplanet.org <--a nifty spot.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard davidjmedlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN USA
    Posts
    1,688
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, from what I understand, using 100% CSS site doesn't mean that you can't use tables. If you're dumping data straight out of a database, there's nothing wrong with that.

    What he doesn't seem to understand is that using tables for design elements is just bad design practice. (Though I've recently been convicted of doing so to an extreme degree myself...) *sigh*

    And no, I wouldn't eat at McNasty's if he worked there, either. He obviously has issues when it comes to standards, and I'm afraid that his view of web standards may spill over into other areas of his life. (Ya know, hygiene, work ethic, etc.)

  10. #10
    011521 dbalsdon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    North Of Scotland
    Posts
    444
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Somehow, i feel this smilie describes whoever wrote that article perfectly: -


    Sorry for using that smilie H
    Daniel Balsdon
    My Site

  11. #11
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Posts
    7,279
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The funny thing about that is he linked to page 2 of an article to prove his point, but page 1 of that same article rebutted all of the points of his own article.
    Dave Maxwell - Manage Your Site Team Leader
    My favorite YouTube Video! | Star Wars, Dr Suess Style
    Learn how to be ready for The Forums' Move to Discourse

  12. #12
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Svíţjóđ
    Posts
    4,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And this image describes what we think:
    http://www.wise-women.org/images/illus/bug.gif

  13. #13
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Houston, TX, USA
    Posts
    6,455
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This is the problem with a small percentage of software developers and web designers, the fear of embracing something new. The VB6 -> VB.NET example is perfect. You cannot experience growth if you do not embrace change. Look at Bill Gates, he knew that the Macintosh was going places and that IBM would be left in the dust. What if he didn't move over and get the Windowed OS?? Would everyone be using Macs and would Bill be rich?

    I will say that CSS isn't always the answer because there are situations when tables are absolutely necessary. Secondly, I am not on a mission to rid the world of the <table> tag... I am merely trying to seperate content from presentation. CSS is the answer to that.

  14. #14
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Roxbury/Boston
    Posts
    479
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by davidjmedlock
    Well, from what I understand, using 100% CSS site doesn't mean that you can't use tables. If you're dumping data straight out of a database, there's nothing wrong with that.
    I agree, for say like an invoicing system, sure, the data for the invoice is going to be displayed in a table.
    I think he was comparing something like sitepoint's article database and saying they should be dumped into tables. That because the articles are stored in a database, they should be displayed on a table layout. That by doing a css layout "we" (not me personally but proponents of css layout) are breaking our own rules about tabular data belonging in a table. If that isn't cracked logic, I don't know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    You cannot experience growth if you do not embrace change.
    don't wuss out because you aren't learning it fast enough either!
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    tinyplanet.org <--a nifty spot.

  15. #15
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think the man has a point.

    RETURN ON INVESTMENT (ROI).....ahhh..this is a good acronym to know.....if we cojust when is the new Fully CSS web site going to pay off?????
    As you can see, from the above, the bandwidth argument is less and less because it's IMAGES that can take up 50% of the bandwidth anyway....thereby increasing the time for any recovery of your investment of time and money......Some have said you need to have 1 or 2 years to recover your investment.....NONSENSE, you are not given that much time to prove your idea in the real world.....2 months tops!!!!....Just think all the time and money could have been spent somewhere else: hardware, marketing, sales, .......those can have a better return on investment than 2 years!!! If mpare a before and after web site that uses <table>s or <div> you put it into sales, it would be immediate.
    Here, he describes the value of ROI and CSS capabilities in the world order, and it's NONSENSE that my dog is green.... 75% of my bandwidth is used by my site, and the other 40% are used by aliens. I can have a better ROI by judging the personality of my hardware and software and CD:s. It's a well known fact that CSS users have smaller genitalia get get less chicks. Ooogla bloogla flaxgar.

    And REMEMBER THE RULE:
    ALWAYS ASK FOR THE ROI of the LATEST STANDARD before going to that standard. Ollie wollie!
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  16. #16
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Roxbury/Boston
    Posts
    479
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    It's a well known fact that CSS users have smaller genitalia

    So...the reason I'm having so much trouble getting the hang of the CSS layout is because my [insert euphemism here] is too big? You mean I should've bought a smaller one??
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    tinyplanet.org <--a nifty spot.

  17. #17
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Svíţjóđ
    Posts
    4,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hehe, a little misspelling, I guess you meant "I think the man has a joint"?

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    Ooogla bloogla flaxgar.
    Couldn't agree more

  18. #18
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No

    Rik
    English tea - Italian coffee - Maltese wine - Belgian beer - French Cognac

  19. #19
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,235
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    I will say that CSS isn't always the answer because there are situations when tables are absolutely necessary. Secondly, I am not on a mission to rid the world of the <table> tag... I am merely trying to seperate content from presentation. CSS is the answer to that.
    Even I agree with this. Some layouts and/or circumstances dictate tables; anybody should be able to realize that. CSS is cool, but sometimes you just need tables (hell, I even have two tables on my site where it makes sense).

    And to the guy who wrote the article, why doesn't he try a mix of tables and CSS? It won't hurt him any, and a CSS layout isn't an endpoint; it's merely another option! Also, ROI is a meaningless business ratio used by people who don't know any better. It's absolutely dumb to use in most cases when it comes to technology, which can at best hope to reduce a company's costs.

  20. #20
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Svíţjóđ
    Posts
    4,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    ... I even have two tables on my site where it makes sense
    Isn't that in your résumé, where a table makes a lot of sense ?

    Off Topic:


    And résumé should be spelled like that (i.e. not resumé) - correct?


  21. #21
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,235
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Isn't that in your résumé, where a table makes a lot of sense ?

    Off Topic:


    And résumé should be spelled like that (i.e. not resumé) - correct?

    That's one of 'em

    Off Topic:

    And I think you're right. Dammit, time to check dictionary.com and update!

  22. #22
    Drop em if you got em
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    691
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'll say this: I did not read his article, but I see a lot of anti-table arguments that make no sense either. "Tables are bad, they're not the way... blah blah blah" and a lot of the time, those arguments are kind of silly too.

    I have a few sites, some that are older I have not embraced CSS as much as I can (due to time it takes to redesign many pages), but I'm not going to go completely tableless on many (I have on only one, where it made sense).

    Just as many tricks usually need to be used for pure-css as they do for tables. Combine the two concepts (utilizing much of css with some tables) and you've got a nice design that is probably pretty well-received cross-browser. Unfortunately people take some of these concepts like religion and never stray from them.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Enthusiast Parse_error's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Florida, great place to vacation but I live here.
    Posts
    60
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Tis' a poor technician that blames his tools.
    ~ Theres one in every crowd! ~

  24. #24
    SitePoint Member Brad.loo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Z quadrant
    Posts
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I dident take the time to read it all because its mostly non-scence, its just anthor case of someone not wanting to learn something new. Let him drag his feet, hes only hurting himself.

  25. #25
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Svíţjóđ
    Posts
    4,080
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    ... I see a lot of anti-table arguments that make no sense either. ...
    OK, I can't know what you see - but I can guess...
    My opinion: There's one big fat anti-table argument; don't use tables for layout.

    But then there was this "well-received cross-browser" argument you mention; when you had to make a page look normal in Njetscape 4 etc, you had to use tables. Luckily, we don't have to design for backward compatibility with 6 year old buggy browsers anymore. At least I don't do it.
    The css approach will make your pages well-received cross-device, and if someone persists in using IE2 or whatever, they will get the plain html, without stylesheet, from me.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •