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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrac
    And free is good! Especially when you can't even afford shoestrings.... [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
    Yeah free IS good but when you are working as a pro & on windows then you can't have all the good things you want, no?? On Linux maybe yes but not on Windows. That's my experience so far. I use Windows & thus I have to buy my softwares, those which are not available for free like Dreamweaver & Photoshop, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrac
    Also, I recently tried Dreamweaver, but I am so used to HTML-Kit that I didn't like DW much.... So I highly reccomend HTML-Kit, unless you have to have WYSIWYG.
    & If you are working as a pro then you need to have WYSIWYG. Otherwise just plain Notepad or any other text-editor will do, no??
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  2. #52
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    & If you are working as a pro then you need to have WYSIWYG. Otherwise just plain Notepad or any other text-editor will do, no??
    How's that? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't see how you need a wysiwyg editor to be a pro.

    I use dreamweaver mostly because of the "typing shortcuts", I don't get that with notepad.
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  3. #53
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    i hate WYSIWYG

    it's kind of..... embarrassing.
    There's no place like 127.0.0.1

  4. #54
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    & If you are working as a pro then you need to have WYSIWYG. Otherwise just plain Notepad or any other text-editor will do, no??
    I have done a lot of professional work in the last 6 years regarding Web development and have never used a WYSIWYG editor. Even when I had an unlimited expense account for software, I had never purchased something like Dreamweaver.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  5. #55
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    I find that when I use DW I'm constantly checking that it's done it correctly. Style sheet preview on DW is not good (haven't tried 2004) and have to use the CArrie Bickner hack - http://alistapart.com/articles/dreamweaver/ - to get DW to produce code that I need.

    HTML-Kit I like very much as I'm CODING rather than dumping stuff into a tool that decides how it wants the code to look. And I want to use a stylesheet that I write. And I want to decide on my own Javascript . And ... And ... and . I just want a tool that makes hand coding easier.
    John
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  6. #56
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    Wow - fantastic recommendation on TopStyle. I just downloaded it now and tried it out - what a great application - a HUGE productivity enhancer if you're a heavy CSS user like me.

    My top five apps:

    1. Dreamweaver MX
    2. XMLSpy ( I do a lot of XML/XSL work )
    3. Adobe Photoshop
    4. TopStyle Pro
    5. WinSCP (open source btw - link )

  7. #57
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneViper
    i hate WYSIWYG

    it's kind of..... embarrassing.
    Why do you hate WYSIWYG??? Its not that bad!!


    Quote Originally Posted by firegryphon3207
    How's that? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't see how you need a wysiwyg editor to be a pro.
    I use dreamweaver mostly because of the "typing shortcuts", I don't get that with notepad.
    Well I didn't mean that you gotta have WYSIWYG to be a pro. I just meant that its too difficult to be a pro & not work in WYSIWYG environment. That'll be spending time luxriously if you don't work in WYSIWYG as it provides more tight control over the layout of the page that I can't imagine how people can do without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by W.Luke
    I have done a lot of professional work in the last 6 years regarding Web development and have never used a WYSIWYG editor. Even when I had an unlimited expense account for software, I had never purchased something like Dreamweaver.
    Well there are always exceptions, aren't there?? But if you are more cocerned about the design of the page before you proceed to the back-end(asp, php), then you know, its too difficult to manage the design just as I mentioned above. Why not take an example of SitePoint itself. They have real pros in their office, yet they use Editize to manage the content of their site just because they have more control over what they are inputting & its a time saver.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    I find that when I use DW I'm constantly checking that it's done it correctly. Style sheet preview on DW is not good (haven't tried 2004)
    Well there you are. You should check out the 2004 version. It does have good style sheet support. But I agree with you there. Before the 2004 version, I did had trouble in getting my stylesheets while using dreamweaver but what can you say. Not everything's perfect. You get something good, you get something bad, that's what life's all about.

    & yes, one great tool added by ghuytro, XMLSpy by Altova if I am not mistaken. A great tool for XML Productivity. I used it but not for long, about 4-5 months back. Just one project but it's great tool. Not many good tools are out there for XML/XSL are they?? Well if there are, can some post the links here, I might check them up.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  8. #58
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    Well I didn't mean that you gotta have WYSIWYG to be a pro. I just meant that its too difficult to be a pro & not work in WYSIWYG environment. That'll be spending time luxriously if you don't work in WYSIWYG as it provides more tight control over the layout of the page that I can't imagine how people can do without it.
    Quite frankly, I feel the exact opposite. wysiwyg programs often create ineffecient code. I often find myself offended by the way they do the code. Some are worse than others, but they all have their failings. I like to think of it the same as the difference between driving a stick shift and and automatic. Both get you there, but with the stick shift, you are always in control.


    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    Well there are always exceptions, aren't there?? But if you are more cocerned about the design of the page before you proceed to the back-end(asp, php), then you know, its too difficult to manage the design just as I mentioned above. Why not take an example of SitePoint itself. They have real pros in their office, yet they use Editize to manage the content of their site just because they have more control over what they are inputting & its a time saver.
    I wouldn't compare Editize with the likes of Dreamweaver and Frontpage. Editize only "encodes" text, and just the text prior to storing it in the database. It does one thing, one thing only. Editize will not build your website. It isn't for Sitepoint, it's for SP's users.
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
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  9. #59
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    Well there you are. You should check out the 2004 version. (Regarding DreamWeaver)
    Two things:

    Dreamweaver does not (nor does any WISIWYG tool) teach programming for the web, a that's what I do the majority of the time.

    Dreamweaver costs more than my students can afford. I don't think it's fair to saddle them with extra outlay AND a less than complete programming experience. It detracts from the control they need to learn. And as I teach it, I use it.

    I do not deny the potential time saving in using WISIWYG tools, just that they need tweaking to make them work correctly.
    John
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  10. #60
    SitePoint Evangelist mafunk's Avatar
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    My favorites are:
    1. Macromedia Fireworks (for graphics)
    2. CoffeCup HTML for coding
    3. CoffeCup Direct FTP (awesome program allows live updates to your sites)
    4. Photoshop (for graphics)
    MaFunk

  11. #61
    SitePoint Addict langedav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardinComp
    Ahh. It's good to see someone else who uses my two favorite audio editing programs. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
    Personally i rather use Wavelab 4.0 by steinberg in stead of soundforge :-)

  12. #62
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firegryphon3207
    Quite frankly, I feel the exact opposite. wysiwyg programs often create ineffecient code. I often find myself offended by the way they do the code. Some are worse than others, but they all have their failings. I like to think of it the same as the difference between driving a stick shift and and automatic. Both get you there, but with the stick shift, you are always in control.
    Not all WYSIWYG programs create in-efficient code. I wouldn't put Dreamweaver in that category of in-efficient code generators. Microsoft FrontPage may come in that category but not DW(the MX series). Its improved quite a lot over past years & mind you, it does have a great following. As far as I reckon, its still the most widely used tool by the programmers world over. Sure sometimes it does produce some code that can be done away with but that can be modified by hand, no?? Its better to modify some tit bits rather than code the whole thing yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by firegryphon3207
    I wouldn't compare Editize with the likes of Dreamweaver and Frontpage. Editize only "encodes" text, and just the text prior to storing it in the database. It does one thing, one thing only. Editize will not build your website. It isn't for Sitepoint, it's for SP's users.
    No I am not comparing Editize with Dreamweaver or FrontPage nor I said that it'll build any website but I am just emphasizing the need of WYSIWYG environment & Editize is for maintaining the content of a website. The SitePoint TechTimes & Tribune are composed in Editize though.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    Two things:
    Dreamweaver does not (nor does any WISIWYG tool) teach programming for the web, a that's what I do the majority of the time.

    Dreamweaver costs more than my students can afford. I don't think it's fair to saddle them with extra outlay AND a less than complete programming experience. It detracts from the control they need to learn. And as I teach it, I use it.

    I do not deny the potential time saving in using WISIWYG tools, just that they need tweaking to make them work correctly.
    You never mentioned above in your last to last post that you require it for teaching, etc. All you said that you have to check constantly to see whether your style sheets have been rendered correctly. For that I said that you should check out the new 2004 version as it does have good CSS support. And never did I say that it teach programming for the web. Programming for web is best learned with a text-editor. I learned it with Notepad. For learning purposes, I wouldn't recommend DW to anyone.
    And you are right about students not able to afford DW but if needed to have a bit of experience on it then the 30 day trial version is always there.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    And if anyone wants, Kevin Yank here at SitePoint did a review on Macromedia DreamweaverMX 2004 which can be read at http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1230. He also agrees that the CSS support in the 2004 version is much much better than its predecessers.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  14. #64
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    And if anyone wants, Kevin Yank here at SitePoint did a review on Macromedia DreamweaverMX 2004 which can be read at http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1230. He also agrees that the CSS support in the 2004 version is much much better than its predecessers.
    There are already several topics devoted to the review and new release of Dreamweaver 2004. This isn't one of them. This is a topic asking what different people use not trying to convert people to your favorite editor.

    Personally, I review every release of Dreamweaver and it gets deleted within a week of being installed. It isn't the tool that I want to use and it has no features in it that makes it bearable enough for me to use. Obviously, I am not the only one here that feels that $400 can be put to better use than to buy a bloated WYISYWG editor from Macromedia.

    If you enjoy the program and it makes you feel like you are more professional and it saves time then great. I feel it is a waste of time for my particular work style.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  15. #65
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp_funda
    You never mentioned above in your last to last post that you require it for teaching, ... And you are right about students not able to afford DW but if needed to have a bit of experience . . .
    As W.Luke said - this is not an evangelistic conversion thread. If you fel that DW works for you and you are prepared to pay for something that still has difficulty rendering standards, then that's up to you. I wil stick with free and open source materials and try to put back into the community that little that my skill allows - which is what Open Source is alll about - community.
    John
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  16. #66
    SitePoint Member netbenny's Avatar
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    Talking freeware

    Quote Originally Posted by lokodezine
    What in your opion are the 5 programs that every
    WEBDESIGNER/GRAPHIC DESGINER should get

    I am looking to get some more programs that can make me better

    Thanks
    AIM: lokodezine
    YIM: lokodezine


    once agaign thanks

    I have tried dreamweaver mx and liked it. I just do not have the money to purchase it right now. The closest freeware application I have found is Trellian WebPage.

    My other choices would be:
    IrfanView
    TSW WebCoder
    Metty
    SMARTFTP
    Microsoft Word

    http://www.netbenny.com

  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    There are already several topics devoted to the review and new release of Dreamweaver 2004. This isn't one of them. This is a topic asking what different people use not trying to convert people to your favorite editor.

    Personally, I review every release of Dreamweaver and it gets deleted within a week of being installed. It isn't the tool that I want to use and it has no features in it that makes it bearable enough for me to use. Obviously, I am not the only one here that feels that $400 can be put to better use than to buy a bloated WYISYWG editor from Macromedia.
    I know this thread is not for any reviews of DW or anything else. I was just saying why I like it & why I would recommend it. I am not trying to convert people to what I am using. Everyone has his own reasons for using or not using anything. I have my reasons & surely you have your reasons, no??


    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    If you enjoy the program and it makes you feel like you are more professional and it saves time then great. I feel it is a waste of time for my particular work style.
    There's no software in world that can make you feel professional. If there is, I certainly don't know about that. Professionalism comes from within oneself, by ones way of doing a particular task. I hope I am not wrong about this. So no hard feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    As W.Luke said - this is not an evangelistic conversion thread. If you fel that DW works for you and you are prepared to pay for something that still has difficulty rendering standards, then that's up to you. I wil stick with free and open source materials and try to put back into the community that little that my skill allows - which is what Open Source is alll about - community.
    There's no harm in sticking with free software. I also use freeware as far as I can b'coz I believe "why should I pay for something when a good alternative is available for free". And as you said above that you like coding much then EditPlus might also interest you(it is mentioned earlier by optimus prime). A good tool for coding html, java, php, perl, etc but again its not free. Its shareware.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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  18. #68
    SitePoint Enthusiast Noosa Life's Avatar
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    yeah would have to agree with John on this one.

    Start with FREE (HTML-Kit) has been instrumental in much of my work.

    That being said I cut my teeth on the entire Adobe Suite GoLive, Illustrator, In Design, Acrobat, LiveMotion, Photoshop and without that background would be lost now.

    Thats my 2cents

  19. #69
    SitePoint Member 13tenMedia's Avatar
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    Hmmm... Looked this over and what people are recommending.

    One caution, if you do get Dreamweaver like so many are recommending, don't use it if you are building templates that you'll be passing off to a programmer. DW does some really weird stuff with line breaks and the like that makes it incredible irritating to templatize. If you're just building static sites and don't have to deal with grumpy programmers, it's probably adequate.

  20. #70
    Google Engineer polvero's Avatar
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    hehe...
    this ought to be fun

    run > notepad.exe
    winamp 3.0 > continuous loop
    PS 7.0
    WS_FTP

    i'm convinced you only need these four to get anywhere.

    Do you think TopStyle is needed anymore, since DW MX 2004 has upgraded its CSS capabilities?
    Top Style is just plain easier! probably the only program out there that actual does exactly what it's supposed to.
    Dreamweaver is nice for some advanced stuff, but you can often get lost in its capabilities.

    some other nice stuff >>
    anything else by macromedia, cpanel, myPHPAdmin.

    cpanel was perhaps the coolest thing i could have got in my hosting account. plus it already has built in features like myphpadmin, a FormMail Clone, and a few other pre-installed scripts.
    the list can go on forever though i believe.

  21. #71
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    So what are the best five for a Mac developer? I'm considering getting a Mac laptop, since my colleagues are lauding theirs to the skies. I went from Macs to PCs in 1997, having had one since 1984, so am a bit out of touch.

    The reason for getting one is the education deal!
    John
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  22. #72
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    I'm in John Colby's camp...and add ACDSee graphics viewer; an older version. I run a pix intensive site with 240 new adds a month. ACDC allows edits, retouching, resizing, renaming and makes the thumbnails. The edit button allows external programs; Photoshop, etc. HTML-Kit gives me the CONTROL I need.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Zealot Troylegra's Avatar
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    Style Master

    Quote Originally Posted by ntg
    1. Dreamweaver MX (not the very buggy 2004 version) for web design
    2. PaintShop Pro for most graphic stuff
    3. PhotoShop for the things PSP cannot do (right)
    4. Style Master for CSS (much friendlier than TopStyle)
    5. ACDSee for fast image viewing and management

    does anyone else have experience with Style Master? seems like a neat program... TopStyle is good but I find to be not so user friendly
    --

    T

  24. #74
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy asp_funda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13tenMedia
    Hmmm... Looked this over and what people are recommending.
    One caution, if you do get Dreamweaver like so many are recommending, don't use it if you are building templates that you'll be passing off to a programmer. DW does some really weird stuff with line breaks and the like that makes it incredible irritating to templatize. If you're just building static sites and don't have to deal with grumpy programmers, it's probably adequate.
    Very true, DW does tend to do some funny things with line breaks, even the new 2004 version. I've had it for a month now but I still haven't figured it out completely. Macromedia has added a lot to it.
    Does anyone know what's good for making templates that are to be passed on to others??


    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    So what are the best five for a Mac developer? I'm considering getting a Mac laptop, since my colleagues are lauding theirs to the skies. I went from Macs to PCs in 1997, having had one since 1984, so am a bit out of touch.

    The reason for getting one is the education deal!
    The buzz does start when someone declares that he's buying a Mac. I haven't used it yet but have seen it & it really is gorgeous, every make that I've seen & the laptop is simply coooool!! But is it good for working?? There isn't much support for it when compared to windows or linux, in terms of softwares.
    Our lives teach us who we are.
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    iG:Syntax Hiliter -- Colourize your code in WordPress!!

  25. #75
    SitePoint Evangelist NokX's Avatar
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    i consistently use dreamweaver, photoshop, and transmit. i don't really like the way dreamweaver does ftping, and it times out quite a bit, whereas transmit at least connects back to the server almost instantly.

    some screenshots: 1 | 2 | 3

    the for extra stuff of course, flash.

    my suggestion is if you're not familiar with coding, don't get comfy with the design view in dreamweaver, make yourself learn the basics, at least, of the code while you're building.


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