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  1. #76
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelsun
    So for the interim, I'll continue to use Tables to get the positioning that will be consistant and use CSS for other parts of the visual aspects of the page.
    This is a sensible approach that I can agree with . You don't have to totally ditch tables to reap the benefits of CSS design. Hey, even Zeldman's company uses layout tables on their site and sites they build.

  2. #77
    Super Ninja Monkey Travis's Avatar
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    Yeah, tables with CSS are a great combination. Didn't you blog about that Vinnie?
    Travis Watkins - Hyperactive Coder
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  3. #78
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis
    Yeah, tables with CSS are a great combination. Didn't you blog about that Vinnie?
    In a roundabout way, yes

  4. #79
    SitePoint Enthusiast digicam's Avatar
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    Great discussion. But I'm curious.

    I've visited several websites owned by major corporations which appear to have been redesigned quite recently....ie. major overhauls. Each one I've looked at continues to use tables and I'm not just talking about for tablular data. If css positioning is the preferred way to go (and the only way to go if you listen to some CSS proponents), why have these companies again chosen to use tables for design/layout? The layouts are quite complex.

    I think css is a wonderful tool but for those who continue to use tables for design, should they be considered so out of the loop?!

    thanks
    Last edited by digicam; Oct 15, 2003 at 16:04.
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  5. #80
    busy Steelsun's Avatar
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    One thing I've noticed: I work with quite a few large companies that have tons of worker drones that sit at their desks and do all their work on computers (sometimes work stations, sometimes regular networked systems), and due to the nature of corporate life, many of the drones don't have the latest software / hardware on them. I was working on locationwith one VP of a major corp (financial industry) (he probably nets more per year in salary than my company has in the last 2 years total), and his screen was set at 800x600 and he was using IE 5.0.
    I was suggesting some resource sites to him and showing him some tricks. We were accessing sites on the net that looked awful, yet I recall looking OK on my home system or laptop. Needless to say he did not like these resources, and the companies/sites we visited could have made a bundle from his company if it was viewable. When I got home and had time to play around I noticed that all these sites had floating pallets / div / CSS positioning.
    Since he and others like him are my main source of income (90% of our company billing), needless to say I made sure every one of my sites they might access was viewable to them.

    I just finished redesigning a set of sister sites for some non-profits which made heavy use of tables and CSS. Many of the people viewing the sites are in churches (which generally have a low budget for new computer systems/software/tech) or from the UK. I found the table/CSS combo rendered best on these sometimes subpar systems. (FYI, the sites are www.stpaulsbells.com and www.stpaulschoir.com )
    Brian Poirier
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  6. #81
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelsun
    I just finished redesigning a set of sister sites for some non-profits which made heavy use of tables and CSS. Many of the people viewing the sites are in churches (which generally have a low budget for new computer systems/software/tech) or from the UK. I found the table/CSS combo rendered best on these sometimes subpar systems. (FYI, the sites are www.stpaulsbells.com and www.stpaulschoir.com )
    Exactly why I didn't run out and do a all css-positioned site on the job. We are a non-profit that deals with a specific constituency, we know who they are and how they are accessing the internet. And because we know there are alot of people accessing via good old fashioned dial up-there are no spacer images or any of that. (I never used that anyway). If you have an old browser, you are going to see a plain site, but one that's functional and doesn't take 10 years to download (with a few minor exceptions that couldn't be helped). If you are a little more up to date, well you see a few spiffy extras. The focus always was the content and getting that content to people.
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
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  7. #82
    busy Steelsun's Avatar
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    That's a good technique and way of doing things.
    (I also hate spacer images and avoid them if at all possible - I can't remember the last time I used one).
    Brian Poirier
    SunStockPhoto: Stock Photos, Fine Art Photos, Event Photography

  8. #83
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelsun
    That's a good technique and way of doing things.
    (I also hate spacer images and avoid them if at all possible - I can't remember the last time I used one).
    I say there is no excuse for using a spacer image.
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
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  9. #84
    SitePoint Addict dAEk's Avatar
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    Sorry if I'm a bit late to reply on this topic, hey, I'm new here

    Anyways, that was the worst ever written article I think I have ever read. Not only is he putting incorrect info up there, he makes it look they are FACTS!

    For example)
    FULL CSS makes surfing FASTER
    MYTH. FALSE. UNPROVEN.


    Err, say what ? Of course it speeds up the loading-time of pages since the css is being cached after it's been loaded the first time. And the actual (X)HTML is in most cases way smaller than a bloated table-based layout. It may not be faster in all cases, but in most. He needs to do some testing, that's for sure.

    As I think someone else already have written, I think the author of the article realizes that he [I couldn't find the name?] has to learn something new to stay updated, and is not seeing any reason to do so when the current technique is 'working'.


    The part when he/she brings up databases as being tabular is hilarious. It's like saying "Oh, the database has no colors, I guess that means I can't use colors on my page!" [Come to think about it, their pages are almost entirely in black-n-white, lol!]

  10. #85
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine
    ... Of course it speeds up the loading-time of pages since the css is being cached after it's been loaded the first time. And the actual (X)HTML is in most cases way smaller than a bloated table-based layout. ...
    That's correct; I can give you one example of table layout converted to divs + css, page size reduced with 54 %. However, in absolute size that only means 3-4 KB, not too exciting for the user to have the page loaded a few tenths of a second faster, the big win is on the server side, where you use less than half the bandwidth after the redesign.

  11. #86
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine
    The part when he/she brings up databases as being tabular is hilarious.
    Actually, if you're spitting out data from the DB in almost the same fashion it is stored (i.e. a report or spreadsheet-looking page) then a table is just fine. It's the perfect use for that sort of thing!

  12. #87
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Ok, here's something to ponder... All of those who mentioned something about designing for older browsers, when does the point come when you just sit there and go, "you know what, I am not going to support NN4 anymore"? When do you decide that supporting an outdated browser should end.

  13. #88
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    When do you decide that supporting an outdated browser should end.
    when that browsers stats hit below 10% (for the sites i work on). most of the time, that browser is about 50% of the usage to about 4-5 sites that i work on. evidently the 2% nn4 users all go to my sites.

  14. #89
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    Ok, here's something to ponder... All of those who mentioned something about designing for older browsers, when does the point come when you just sit there and go, "you know what, I am not going to support NN4 anymore"? When do you decide that supporting an outdated browser should end.
    When it's no longer financially feasible for me really. If 20% of my business came from NN4 users then I'd probably work a little harder to keep my site looking good for them. However, when I'm spending 25% of my development time for a browser that 1 out of 1000 visitors come to my site with (these are real stats that I pulled from our site at work this year), it's just not worth it anymore. I still make sure my content is readable in NN4 but I don't really do anything too special for it.

    Edit:

    Another thing to ponder: NN4 is 6 and a half years old (first released in June of 1997). The normal lifecycle of software obsolesence is 3-5 years max. The only other piece of software I've seen people/companies hold on to longer is Windows NT 4.0 (released in 1996).

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    98% of the users to most of my sites are IE users. The amount using NN4 is so negligible it doesn't even show up in my top 10 clients for any of the sites I manage (combined traffic of 110M sessions/month).

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  16. #91
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    98% of the users to most of my sites are IE users. The amount using NN4 is so negligible it doesn't even show up in my top 10 clients for any of the sites I manage (combined traffic of 110M sessions/month).

    J
    My work site's stats are about the same. It's something like 95% IE, 3% Mozilla/Netscape 6+, 2% Opera, and the last 1% is split between Konqueror, Safari, and NN4.

  17. #92
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
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    the users of one site are primarily the trucking industry and they don't seem to be very up to date. maybe the larger companies such as FedEx, etc, but the smaller, regional companies aren't. i even ran into one weird javascript problem with one company due to their nn4 usage.

    the other sites in general cater to very small mom-pop shops that don't seem to be very up to date either.

  18. #93
    SitePoint Enthusiast bonkedproducer's Avatar
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    In Reply to #87

    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

    Almost required reading for this discussion
    "Clothes make the man;
    naked people have little influence in society." - Twain
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  19. #94
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonkedproducer
    In Reply to #87

    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

    Almost required reading for this discussion
    Yeah I loved that article

  20. #95
    because you gotta have beer! firegryphon3207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbolte
    when that browsers stats hit below 10% (for the sites i work on). most of the time, that browser is about 50% of the usage to about 4-5 sites that i work on. evidently the 2% nn4 users all go to my sites.
    Almost but not quite the same here.our NN4 stats are more like 25%, but most of our IE are 5.0 Granted, nn4 folks aren't going to see how pretty it is, but they do have full functionality. It doesn't help that the boss uses nn4 I found it interesting that our most frequent visitor uses windows for workgroups.
    Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
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  21. #96
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonkedproducer
    In Reply to #87

    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

    Almost required reading for this discussion
    Yep, I've read it. I was just trying to get opinions of everyone here. To me personal experience from people on these boards is just as much of help as an article.

  22. #97
    SitePoint Addict dAEk's Avatar
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    I love that article too, I even have it printed out


    If the NS4-users get pages with effects and all, why would they ever want to upgrade ??
    David Shamloo-Ekblad

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  23. #98
    busy Steelsun's Avatar
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    Most of my viewers are IE 5, which still doesn't handle CSS positioning well.
    Heck I use IE 5 (with MYIE2 as an overlay) and about 1/3 of the entries in the recent CSS competition here on SP did not render right!
    Brian Poirier
    SunStockPhoto: Stock Photos, Fine Art Photos, Event Photography

  24. #99
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine
    If the NS4-users get pages with effects and all, why would they ever want to upgrade ??
    Very good point.
    John
    No electrons were harmed during the creation, transmission
    or reading of this posting. However, many were excited and
    some may have enjoyed the experience.

  25. #100
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonkedproducer
    In Reply to #87
    http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/
    Almost required reading for this discussion
    Almost required reading for everyone
    And the article's date? ... 16 February 2001 !


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