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  1. #26
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    This thread has been moved to the CSS forum.
    [mmj] My magic jigsaw
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  2. #27
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    The css approach will make your pages well-received cross-device, and if someone persists in using IE2 or whatever, they will get the plain html, without stylesheet, from me.
    Not exactly, unless you insist on serving your pages through HTTP < 1.1

  3. #28
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Why doesn't everyone just use what suits them the best? Why are we (and other people) arguing over a personal preference?

    To me that's all that this is; preference. I don't think tables are bad because I know there are times when they are necessary. I also know that CSS was an answer to a problem seen at the time, seperating content from presentation. I don't see why people complain about either camp when they have the ability to choose... Personally I don't care if your site uses tables, it isn't going to make me not visit it.

  4. #29
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    I don't think tables are bad because I know there are times when they are necessary.
    Try viewing a page, where nested tables are used for the layout, in a text only browser, or listen to the page in a non visual browser.
    Image, Image, Image ... (and the image is "spacer.gif" or similar)

  5. #30
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    Not exactly, unless you insist on serving your pages through HTTP < 1.1
    Okay Mr. Nit-picky ...
    IE3 or whatever... Happy?

  6. #31
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Okay Mr. Nit-picky ...
    IE3 or whatever... Happy?
    Yes

  7. #32
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Try viewing a page, where nested tables are used for the layout, in a text only browser, or listen to the page in a non visual browser.
    Image, Image, Image ... (and the image is "spacer.gif" or similar)
    But I don't use a text only browser... And I probably never will. Also, not all sites need to be accessible by a non visual browser (ex. a graphics website).

  8. #33
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    But I don't use a text only browser... And I probably never will. Also, not all sites need to be accessible by a non visual browser (ex. a graphics website).
    But you have to remember that non-visual people have visual friends, and they do talk. This is the one failing of e-commerce sites. They think the blind don't use the Web, especially for purchases. This is a rampant falsehood; actually the blind are more apt to buy online, because they don't have to fear any embarrasment walking into a store and asking for help. The blind also have sighted friends who they purchase gifts for.

    Anyway, that's all beside the point. Accessibility doesn't really require a tableless layout, as long as you code your table properly. I think that's what jofa was getting at. By removing umpteen nested tables and spacer gifs you've already won half the battle on that front.

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with arguing over personal preference, usually the motive should be to arrive at a mutually agreeable consensus that most accurately reflects reality.

    In short, people argue about personal preference so that they can mold their personal preference to fit the best practice, and help others do the same.

    Off Topic:

    résumé, resumé, and resume are all accepted spellings. In my dictionary, résumé is the primary spelling and the others are alternates but it wouldn't surprise me if that varied from source to source.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  10. #35
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    But I don't use a text only browser... And I probably never will. Also, not all sites need to be accessible by a non visual browser (ex. a graphics website).
    But is your website visible in any of these countries or regions: Australia, Canada, Denmark, European Union, Finland, France, Germany, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal, Spain, United Kingdom, United States of America:

    Because if it is then the legistation linked from this page http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/ may be of interest.

    As a web provider, you are a service provider and covered by much of the legislation referred to on this page. Service providers can be companies, governments or individuals. If you do not make your content available then you can be accused of discrimination, the purpose of this legislation.
    John
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  11. #36
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samsm

    Off Topic:

    résumé, resumé, and resume are all accepted spellings. In my dictionary, résumé is the primary spelling and the others are alternates but it wouldn't surprise me if that varied from source to source.
    Good to know

  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot ComputerBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Luckily, we don't have to design for backward compatibility with 6 year old buggy browsers anymore. At least I don't do it.
    The css approach will make your pages well-received cross-device, and if someone persists in using IE2 or whatever, they will get the plain html, without stylesheet, from me.
    Same here. I agree 100%.
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  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    My opinion: There's one big fat anti-table argument; don't use tables for layout.
    Err, that isn't an argument.

    Douglas
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  14. #39
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougBTX
    Err, that isn't an argument.
    No, because I was too lazy to continue with the concludent: "[don't use tables for layout] ...because you only add a lot of unnecessary junk like spacer images etc, and tables shouldn't be used for positioning of text etc, they should be used for tabular data blah blah..."

  15. #40
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    But is your website visible in any of these countries or regions: Australia, Canada, Denmark, European Union, Finland, France, Germany, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal, Spain, United Kingdom, United States of America:

    Because if it is then the legistation linked from this page http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/ may be of interest.

    As a web provider, you are a service provider and covered by much of the legislation referred to on this page. Service providers can be companies, governments or individuals. If you do not make your content available then you can be accused of discrimination, the purpose of this legislation.
    Well if someone wants to sue me because my blog isn't readable to them then there are serious issues with the law... In that case I should sue any site that is in French that I can't read...

  16. #41
    + platinum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    Well if someone wants to sue me because my blog isn't readable to them then there are serious issues with the law... In that case I should sue any site that is in French that I can't read...
    He's not talking about language barriers - more to do with what sort of laws you need to take into consideration when publishing a website.

    But I agree - no one is going to bother going after you for money, it's mainly company sites who need to take those bits and pieces into considerations to be safe from the legalities.

    But that said, it's a good practice to get into regardless of if you think you need to or not.

  17. #42
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by platinum
    He's not talking about language barriers - more to do with what sort of laws you need to take into consideration when publishing a website.

    But I agree - no one is going to bother going after you for money, it's mainly company sites who need to take those bits and pieces into considerations to be safe from the legalities.

    But that said, it's a good practice to get into regardless of if you think you need to or not.
    I understand it was just that some of the W3C stuff has laws about accessibility through language... which I am sorry, I am not translating my site to Dutch

  18. #43
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by platinum
    ... mainly company sites ...
    Or more correct; public authority sites (even blind taxpayers, for example, should be able to access the information & services etc)

  19. #44
    + platinum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    even blind taxpayers, for example, should be able to access the information & services etc
    Yeah - our government has a fairly strict set of guidlines in terms of that actually when you are designing sites for them.

  20. #45
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    ... I am not translating my site to Dutch
    If you had a company in Belgium, it would be a good idea to have both Dutch and French versions of your site

  21. #46
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    The author of this clearly misinformed piece also contributed to the discussion following this article over at builder.com. Just in case one of you would want to read a bit more of his prose.
    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    No, because I was too lazy to continue with the concludent: "[don't use tables for layout] ...because you only add a lot of unnecessary junk like spacer images etc, and tables shouldn't be used for positioning of text etc, they should be used for tabular data blah blah..."
    I don't buy the "tables for tabular data only" argument. Starts to sound a little to much like religion to me (W3C is not God). As a matter of fact, for anybody trying to convert a table based site to CSS I would recommend to go for a hybrid layout first. This will already give you a lot of the benifits of CSS. Then when you want to redesign and take full advantage of the added design options CSS offers, go for positioning.

    Just my 2c

    Rik
    English tea - Italian coffee - Maltese wine - Belgian beer - French Cognac

  22. #47
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoef
    Starts to sound a little to much like religion to me (W3C is not God).


    We don't do good things because God told us that we should do good things, we do it because we think it's good to do good things...
    Sort of

  23. #48
    Ensure you finish what you sta bronze trophy John Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmann
    I understand it was just that some of the W3C stuff has laws about accessibility through language... which I am sorry, I am not translating my site to Dutch
    Accessibility is not about language - its about ability of access in the native language of the website. Language translation is not, and never has been, an issue with accessibility.
    John
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  24. #49
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Colby
    Accessibility is not about language - its about ability of access in the native language of the website. Language translation is not, and never has been, an issue with accessibility.
    Perhaps not language translation, but choice of language is an issue with accessibility because of visitors with dyslexia or other cognitive disabilities. Granted, I don't think that all Web sites should be written at a first grade level, but the usage of obscure or overly technical terms should be watched sometimes.

  25. #50
    Back in Action Winged Spider's Avatar
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    I've got to chime in on this one.

    For a while now, because of the influence of Sitepoint.com, zeldman.com and the need to be popular amoung my web design peers I started designing CSS only sites almost 2 years ago. I was extremely proud that I designed one of the few, if not only, ecommerce CSS only site a year ago.

    I've laid out over a dozen sites with CSS layouts now and each one has made me feel proud to use a standards compliant cross browser technology.

    Recentely though I was asked specifically not to design with CSS and really had a blast designing with tables again for several reasons.

    The first was time. The time it takes me to validate, test, and finish transition from Fireworks PNG to HTML markup is huge with CSSO ( CSS Only ). Add validation to this and a simple 3 column header footer design takes takes 3 times as long as it's tables counterpart. Then I have to create a pretty Netscape 4.plop version as well.

    With CCSO I've also found that other smaller used browsers have a hard time converting the same without the full impact of my beautiful CSSO design. Working with the the ecommerce company we've found that our convertion rate for non styled site visitors is at a 1.1% level. Our normal conversion rate is 5.3%. Over a course of the year CSSO designs can cost you quite a bit of money that I'm certainly not making back designing the things. All tallyed up we've almost lost the cost all of us buying lunch out everyday. If we designed with tables we would effectively get free lunch everyday here in the office.

    ESPN did a nice job on their site but I'm not convinced that they cut down on page size. With a huge CSS file and large amounts of neccesary javascript added to the page I doubt they've descreased their source code size by anything more than 10%. With huge servers running the site I really doubt that they've been saving any money on bandwidth. The bandwidth argument is flawed IMO. Mainly because caring about saving 20k per visitor is like asking the price of a Ferrari.

    Another thing that makes me want to switch back to tables is because of the recent standards die out. Who cares anymore? Sure it was big 2 years ago but without and huge advancement in the area of browsers it's really pointless. The only reason a user would care if you were standards complant is if they were another web developer. I'm not saying stop the good fight but your really not fighting against anybody anymore. Standards are dead, W3C is dead, and so is validation.

    Zen Garden and Sitepoint.com's recent CSS design competition had certainly made me believe that complex visual CSS layouts are very possible. In contrast I know that there are some designs and styles that just won't translate. Tables give you much more flexability than a CSS design anyday. ESPN did a nice job on their site but all of you CSSO diehards know that you would never put up a site that functioned like that.

    For me as I've preached before regrading this issue, CSSO might be a great thing but in terms of ROI, something that I do track, tables, with a heavy dose of CSS, offer a much better solution.


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