SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,356
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bush seems to be trying to keep Gore from becoming the next president by using all his power. Now even thousands of votes are not counted because of him. Gore protests against this, but it's uncertain that anyone will even listen to him since the American people is getting tired of this chaos, which is mainly caused by Bush.

    Is Bush violating the most basic rights of Democracy? Do I miss something?

    From what I've seen, I would say: forget Bush and make Gore the next president or start the whole election over again...

    "One right of everyone who lives in a Democracy is that his/her vote counts with every election in that country he/she is an inhabitant of."

    Sorry to say this, but the way this election is escalating is almost terrifying...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  2. #2
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Big D
    Posts
    321
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It is not accurate to say thousands of votes were not counted. Thousands of ballots were run through the counting machines, and they were rejected as under-votes (no vote at all) or over-votes (votes for two or more candidates). It is not a vote unless your ballot is used correctly.

    This has nothing to do with Bush versus Gore. It is the way machine counts are done.

    Additionally, Gore asked for an extension and was granted one by a Florida Supreme Court. When he couldn't win with that extension, he asked for another. Instead he got a certification--according to the timetable of the Florida Supreme Court.

    Now Gore is in the process of contesting the election. This is the normal process.

    And by the way, we live in a republic, not a democracy. If it were a democracy, we would vote for every single issue that came up. Instead, we elect/appoint legislators, and they vote on the issues. We also elect/appoint administrators, and they are given power by the legislature/constitution to administer. We also elect/appoint judges, and they are given power by the legislature/constitution to interpret the law.
    Jim Lewis
    To BE or Not to BE, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Barium Enema
    FrappyDoo Forums

  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,356
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hmm... that clears things up although I still don't think that Bush should be allowed to become the next President of the United States...

    BTW Gore called the US a Democracy, I believe...


    Maybe I'm too much used to the system here in the Netherlands...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  4. #4
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Lancaster, Ca. USA
    Posts
    12,305
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Several Things:
    [list=1][*]Bush doesn't have any control over what ballots are counted and what ones aren't. The state of Florida has regulations and laws that govern what constitutes a valid ballot and what isn't.[*]The votes have been counted at least twice and three times in many areas of Florida. All three votes turned up different totals. This warrants a recount. But it should not be down by Florida Staffers or Personnel. The ballots should be sent to a third party for counting, with Florida Canvassing Boards and Federal Election Regulators allowed to observe.[*]The Florida Secretary of State is the one that certifies the vote count after all precints report their tally's.[*]Once the votes are counted they are sealed. Even invalidated ballots and unpunched ballots are saved. Each state keeps them for a time they regulate.[*]Each state forms its own voting regulations and guidelines. The federal government only determines who can vote. This is outlined in the Constitution. Voting Rights have been modified twice in the constitution, once to allow former slaves the right to vote and the second to allow women to vote.[*]Discrepancies in the vote have to be looked at under the laws of the state of Florida.[*]The people have voted, the votes have been counted. They had their say. The only way to pursue it further is in the courts.[*]If a lawsuit is brought before the courts, the opposing side has the right to present their arguments. The justices will give a verdict to the side that presents the best argument.[*]Federal Judges and Supreme Court Justices are appointed for life, this eliminates any fear of losing their job if they go against their superior's wishes.[*]Both sides have proven themselves unworthy of the Office of the President (in my opinion).[*]Last but not least, The United States of America was not Created as a Democracy. The United States of America was creates as a Federation of States. This means when you vote for president, you are actually voting for who your state is going to vote for (electoral college). Except for international commerce and international negotiations, each state is essentially its own country. Each makes its own laws, has the ability to have its own military, and provides services to its citizens.[/list=1]
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  5. #5
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,356
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ah... This is just terrible... it seemed all so simple, but it's much more complicated... Any sites where I can improve my knowledge of the American system?

    Well, but what do we do next? Let Bush become president? I actually don't agree with that, especially because of his views on certain topics.

    Politics are really complicated
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Addict superbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Swansea, UK
    Posts
    260
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    you know, we don't have any trouble over here with people ticking a box for the candidate they want to vote for.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Muskegon, MI
    Posts
    2,328
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My two cents...

    While I empathize with Gore on the points in principle he has made at some point we have to draw the line. I think it would be convenient to write Bush or Gore on a napkin and mail into the state of Florida, but I don't think that it would be counted. Why? Because there are certain guidelines, rules, and laws that make a ballot valid or invalid; these laws, rules, and guidelines need to be followed especially when its this close. I think it's safe to assume that there was probably ballots thrown out in every county in every state, but Gore isn't challenging these after the fact

    The Constitution outlines certain powers to the Federal and State governments. How they apply in specific situations have been debated for the last two hundred years. And I think the current situation is only going to add to that.

    To learn more - http://www.historychannel.com/perl/p...ok.pl?ID=35076
    Westmich
    Smart Web Solutions for Smart Clients
    http://www.mindscapecreative.com

  8. #8
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,356
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I still don't get why during the elections, different ballots were used in each state. Is there a particular reason for this?
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Muskegon, MI
    Posts
    2,328
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It is up to each state or election precint in some cases design and create their own ballots. One reason for this is that there are state and local elections. I am voting for a completely different group of people, postions, and propositions in Michigan then someone in Florida.
    Westmich
    Smart Web Solutions for Smart Clients
    http://www.mindscapecreative.com

  10. #10
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,356
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    But when it's about electing the President, you'd expect that every state would use the same ballots. At least, that sounds most logical to me...
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Big D
    Posts
    321
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There is one ballot for all of the elections that are occuring for your precinct. You might be voting for the President, a senator, a congressman, your local sherrif, etc. They don't do separate ballots for each one.
    Jim Lewis
    To BE or Not to BE, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Barium Enema
    FrappyDoo Forums

  12. #12
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Lancaster, Ca. USA
    Posts
    12,305
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by Elledan
    But when it's about electing the President, you'd expect that every state would use the same ballots. At least, that sounds most logical to me...
    The election wasn't just about the president. That was only one thing to vote for. In my city, we also voted for Senators, Representatives, Local Officials (Public Schools, Hospitals, Water Districts, County, City), State Offices, Tax issues, school construction bonds, State Constitution changes (propositions), Public Construction projects (bridges, veteran's homes, shopping centers) and other items.

    Also each state might have different candidates for President. While the Republicans and Democrats are the most seen and vocal parties, there are many more in the United States. Some other parties that people run under include:
    • Green
    • Libertarian
    • Freedom Party
    • Natural Law
    • Independence Party
    • Communist Party of the United States
    • Nazi Party of the United States
    • Social Reform Party
    • Reform Party
    • Independant (not affiliated with any party)


    Each state has rules on who can be listed on the ballot. In the months before the Election, we have special elections called Primaries. In the primaries you vote to determine who can even run for President in your state so instead of 50-100 candidates, it is narrowed down to 5-10. Only those candidates that get a certain percentage or higher get put on the ballot. Some parties might not even make it on the ballot in some states. For example, while the Communist party almost always makes the ballot, the Nazi party hardly ever does in California.

    We haven't even got to the Electoral College vote yet. They don't convene until December 18th and in a lot of states aren't required by law to vote the way the people of the state voted, so things can be more convoluted even more. I know in California they are required to do so, which means all 54 delegates to the Electoral College are voting for Al Gore. If a candidate doesn't get the 270 votes needed in the Electoral College (which can happen if Florida is removed because of election fraud), then the House of Representatives gets to decide who the next President is.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  13. #13
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Mechelen, Belgium, Europe
    Posts
    684
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by jamesglewisf
    And by the way, we live in a republic, not a democracy. If it were a democracy, we would vote for every single issue that came up. Instead, we elect/appoint legislators, and they vote on the issues. We also elect/appoint administrators, and they are given power by the legislature/constitution to administer. We also elect/appoint judges, and they are given power by the legislature/constitution to interpret the law.
    That's incorrect...

    In a democracy you must elect for:
    1. people who control the country
    2. people who control your city

    The essential difference between a democracy and a republic is that in a democracy there is a king (which is not chosen, but has no power at all) instead of a president...

    Also... I find it so suspicious that the brother of Bush governs the state where there is all this weird stuff going around. Couldn't you just revote? USA has lost lots over the whole world... Which country will even listen to you if there are elections and teh USA comes and say how it has to be done.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Muskegon, MI
    Posts
    2,328
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by CJ
    In a democracy you must elect for:
    1. people who control the country
    2. people who control your city

    The essential difference between a democracy and a republic is that in a democracy there is a king (which is not chosen, but has no power at all) instead of a president...
    [/B]
    I think your contradicting yourself.

    A republic is a form of democracy, but it is a republic. In two year interim between elections hundreds of laws are created, modified, or deleted at the village, township, city, county, state, and federal level without any say of the people. The people we elect on our behalf are the ones that decide all these issues on a day to day basis. That is the principle of a republic.

    <Edited by westmich on 11-30-2000 at 12:14 PM>
    Westmich
    Smart Web Solutions for Smart Clients
    http://www.mindscapecreative.com

  15. #15
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Lancaster, Ca. USA
    Posts
    12,305
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by CJ

    The essential difference between a democracy and a republic is that in a democracy there is a king (which is not chosen, but has no power at all) instead of a president...

    Also... I find it so suspicious that the brother of Bush governs the state where there is all this weird stuff going around. Couldn't you just revote? USA has lost lots over the whole world... Which country will even listen to you if there are elections and teh USA comes and say how it has to be done.
    No true democracy can have an Autocratic ruler such as a King. That is a Monarchy.

    The last true democratic societies existed in the city-states of ancient Greece where every citizen voted on every issue. This is fine when you have thousands or even several hundred thousand citizens but not when you have hundreds of millions.

    A revote while possible, it is actually more difficult and costly than the process we are going through now. To be fair and honest it would require a revote in the entire country which would cost billions of dollars, reprinting all the ballots, establishing a new voting day which is prohibited by the constitution and requires an act of Congress and ratification by 3 out of 4 states to change (last amendment took 30 years to approve), then you have to get everyone to vote of which they get 2 paid hours to do so from their employees, pay the poll watchers, pay the vote counters, etc, etc, etc...
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  16. #16
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    184
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You Americans!!

    Us Canadians had our election in one night and we knew the winner. Each ballot is handcounted. If there is an X beside the name they get the vote. Not complicated at all.

    I hope you guys have fun. I have been watching the results in my fellow country and feel that Gore is being a poor sport. I understand wanting a recount, BUT after that is done move on don't ask again and again and again. You know my point.

    See ya!
    "Over 2200 Free Webmaster Resources and Tools"
    Search through our continually updated directory of free webmaster resources.
    WebmasterLane.com

  17. #17
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Posts
    7,286
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    then you have to get everyone to vote of which they get 2 paid hours to do so from their employees
    You get PAID to vote?? I'm definitely working in the wrong state.

    The votes have been counted at least twice and three times in many areas of Florida. All three votes turned up different totals. This warrants a recount. But it should not be down by Florida Staffers or Personnel. The ballots should be sent to a third party for counting, with Florida Canvassing Boards and Federal Election Regulators allowed to observe.
    The problems with doing all these recounts on these specific types of ballots is they degrade every time they are counted. The second time was probably the most accurate count of VALID ballots because some of the "pregnant chads" (love that term) fell off during the first run and the second counted them. The manual recounts is where they start to fall apart because there were a lot of tired people counting ballots. The valid ballots probably weren't a problem because there was a clear distinction on who was getting voted for. The invalid ballots (which shouldn't be counted by most state laws) are the ones which are most succeptible(sp?) to human err and corruption.

    My opinion is if the ballot is not valid according to state laws, it shouldn't be counted. It is a persons RESPONSIBILITY, not just right, to ensure that their ballots meet the standards of correct ballots which are prominently displayed through out the voting area.

    My other big question is why weren't any of the OTHER offices being voted for with these ballots having the same type of problem. They were layed out EXACTLY the same way as the presidential ballot, yet there has not been a PEEP about those elections.....

    <Edited by DaveMaxwell on 12-01-2000 at 08:36 AM>
    Dave Maxwell - Manage Your Site Team Leader
    My favorite YouTube Video! | Star Wars, Dr Suess Style
    Learn how to be ready for The Forums' Move to Discourse

  18. #18
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Lancaster, Ca. USA
    Posts
    12,305
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with you on the recounts Dave. Those ballots are probably getting to be in pretty bad shape by now.

    They mentioned problems with the Senate votes in Palm Beach county as well but not as drastic as in the Presidential vote. Same thing happened in 1996 in the same county. It seems to me that the county needs lessons on how to properly vote.

    Normally it would not be a issue (it wasn't in 1996) because there is a clear winner in the counts. It matters this time because there it is such a close race, not only in Florida but around the rest of the country as well.

    The state of California is considering a bill right now that would allocate 300,000,000 (yeah that is millions) dollars to purchase touch screen voting equipment by 2003. This will eliminate paper voting and provide instant tallies. I am sure other states are considering the same.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  19. #19
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    62
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by superbird
    you know, we don't have any trouble over here with people ticking a box for the candidate they want to vote for.
    I dare say most of us in the U.S. thought this was a pretty simple, straightforward thing, too, before this election. However, it is now apparent that similar problems have been going on for years, it is just that certain events came together, namely the closeness of this race, that have brought them to the forefront. In Florida, there have been issues related to chads (punched cards), but also with cards that are marked (like the scan tron type we used in our precinct this year). Plus there have been issues related to voting access and the counting of military votes. There are rules and regulations to handle these things, but they've never been tested to this extent and questions have arisen, made even more complicated by the fact that pretty much everyone involved has ties to one side or the other so accusations of partisanship abound.

    One good thing has come of this - it has been a great lesson in how our election process works. I dare say a lot more people are aware of the role of the electoral college now and can use words like disenfranchised, vote certification and partisanship with relative ease. I don't think this would have been true a month ago. Still, I hope this never happens again, here or elsewhere. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

    Wayne - In regards to third parties appearing on ballots, doesn't that depend on petition signatures or something? Aren't only the Democratic and Republican candidates decided by primary? Or do the petitions allow the parties to hold primaries to choose their candidates? How about write-in candidates? I am a registered Independent, but have never heard of any of the third party parties holding primaries here in Texas, despite the fact that there were a couple of them on the ballot or eligible as write-ins.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Mechelen, Belgium, Europe
    Posts
    684
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also, how come in a developed country like the USA you still use old systems to vote? Those sytems are so inaccurate...

    In Belgium they vote in the bigger cities using computers (voter keys in on which candidate he/she votes) and in teh smaller cities votes get hand-counted. We know the results of our elections within 7 hours and they are totally accurate. Also our media is not allowed to talk about the elections before all voting booths are closed. OK, belgium is a very small country, but still.

    That last point is very important as US media announced Gore as the winner of the election before it was done, so Gore-voters thought they didn't have to go vote anymore.

    Again about the monarchy-democracy-rebublic thing, a country where the King only has a value as 'promoter' of a country (Scandinavia,...) is not a real monarchy, but more a democracy.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Mechelen, Belgium, Europe
    Posts
    684
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Didn't read the thing abpout California and the touch screen thing. But that's still in 3 years, and th question is will they actually be able to pay that...

  22. #22
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    62
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thus far, Internet voting has not been implemented here at least because of thee question of tampering. I assume that the touchscreen process Wayne described will involve networked computers. If so, have there been any questions/debates along the lines of succeptibility to fraud? Also, what happens if the network crashes? If one precinct goes down for an hour, some people will not have the chance to vote as they cannot wait around indefinitely. Accessibility lawsuits. If there is a security breach, no matter how minute, accusations of voter fraud.

    The point is, it seems to me, that almost any system could potentially have problems. I'm not saying some rather dumb (and avoidable) things took place in Florida, but . . . . I think no matter the method of voting, if the race is this close, there will be issues.

  23. #23
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Lancaster, Ca. USA
    Posts
    12,305
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by CJ
    Didn't read the thing abpout California and the touch screen thing. But that's still in 3 years, and th question is will they actually be able to pay that...
    Yeah they will be able to pay it. Portions of the current 3 Billion Dollar budget surplus are allocated to pay for it.



    Wayne - In regards to third parties appearing on ballots, doesn't that depend on petition signatures or something? Aren't only the Democratic and Republican candidates decided by primary? Or do the petitions allow the parties to hold primaries to choose their candidates? How about write-in candidates? I am a registered Independent, but have never heard of any of the third party parties holding primaries here in Texas, despite the fact that there were a couple of them on the ballot or eligible as write-ins.
    Here in California you sign petitions to get on the Primary Ballot, then ballot counts to get on the Presidential ballot. Signatures are easy to get though. We had an issue where the local supermarkets protested the building of a new Wal-Mart so they collected enough signatures to force a vote on it. Then they paid millions of dollars fighting the measure (the city wrote it so it was in favor of Wal-Mart). In the end they lost, and we get two new Wal-Marts now (why stop at one) which will give us 4 in the Twin-City Area that I live in.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  24. #24
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Posts
    7,286
    Mentioned
    121 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by W. Luke
    Wayne - In regards to third parties appearing on ballots, doesn't that depend on petition signatures or something? Aren't only the Democratic and Republican candidates decided by primary? Or do the petitions allow the parties to hold primaries to choose their candidates? How about write-in candidates? I am a registered Independent, but have never heard of any of the third party parties holding primaries here in Texas, despite the fact that there were a couple of them on the ballot or eligible as write-ins.
    Here in California you sign petitions to get on the Primary Ballot, then ballot counts to get on the Presidential ballot.
    I'm 99% sure (always leave room for error!) that this is true in all states. For a candidate to get his name on a ballot, they must have a minimum number of signatures on a petition to prove they are a legitimate candidate for the office.
    Dave Maxwell - Manage Your Site Team Leader
    My favorite YouTube Video! | Star Wars, Dr Suess Style
    Learn how to be ready for The Forums' Move to Discourse

  25. #25
    Fried Gold Polymath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    331
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Latest results:
    G.W.Bush : 5,647,312 lawyers (a loss of 137 lawyers)
    Al Gore : 5,647,739 lawyers (a gain of 312 lawyers)

    Gore wins as he has 427 more lawyers.

    (apologies to Private Eye)


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •