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  1. #1
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    Hand gesture CAPTCHA

    Hi! Please, guys, take a look here: http://gestcha.com - this is a hand gesture CAPTCHA prototype, that I finished just yesterday (it works). Please, tell me, could it be useful or just a waste of time?

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    SitePoint Wizard webcosmo's Avatar
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    Now that's more secure than captcha, great stuff. Just that would drive away few people. Captcha is simpler to understand, you don`t have to read the description and waste time by doing so. Nevertheless, i like the idea! Connect corresponding dots.

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    I like the idea, but
    • it requires use of a mouse, and is therefore not suitable for keyboard-only users
    • an alternative would also be required for visually-impaired users
    • it requires good motor/co-ordination skills. (I failed on one attempt for not placing the dots accurately enough.)

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    I failed every time and I think the problem was I could not tell on the photo which finger was which as the photos were very dark. It might have been the problem TecnoBear had in the spot placing accuracy.

    It looks like a good idea and worth perusing. I would suggest snap points on the fingers when you get close - not necesselary snap points for just the correct answer but even if the answer is wrong and better quality photos. Although this then makes it simpler for the robots?

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    Hmmmmm....I failed every time, and it sure looked like I hit the right fingers every time. Is it limited to specific points on the fingers perhaps? Is the target area too small for passing the test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubble View Post
    It looks like a good idea and worth perusing. I would suggest snap points on the fingers when you get close - not necesselary snap points for just the correct answer but even if the answer is wrong and better quality photos. Although this then makes it simpler for the robots?
    Better quality and larger photos might be the answer to making it easier for humans but harder for robots. Humans would benefit from having a larger and clearer target area, while bots would be hampered by a larger "wrong" area.

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    Hi! Thank you, guys, for your attention! OK, I need to explain some things: Actually an answer matrix is 4x4. Please, wait 10 min. - I will activate the grid. Thank you, TechnoBear! You gave me the great idea about keyboard-only devices (TVs, etc.). It's not hard to add the numbers (1,2,3...) to cells and check the buttons. Thank you, once more! About touch-fingertip proximity: actually, I can do it less strict - it will put some extra weight on generation process, but I can afford it. But it will borrow some time. Thank you, everybody! It was a right place to visit first!
    P.S. Grid is activated. You may need to update page in browser (I don't know what I'm doing wrong with it - I have to press "update" in Firefox to see an updated page). Proximity to edges can happen be too small sometimes - you were right. Not a problem. But keyboard support needs some more time to add.

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    That's better; I failed three out of three the first time and one out of three this time

  9. #9
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    Concerning brightness - I can make it lighter, but with detriment to dynamic range. Is it really worth it? I have doubts. Size is unchangeable - sorry. Actually, it was chosen to be 96x96 due to many factors (hardware-related also).

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    To Rubble: Give me one hour, please - it will be 10 of 10

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    It took longer, but it's done - should be much better now.

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    Personally, I think it's too hard. I failed the first attempt, and that would be it for me if the wild. I'm so fed up with capthcas and being treated like a miscreant that I tend to move on when treated like this. It's not clear which finger is which, and those with seeing/cognitive difficulties wold have no chance to get through this barrier.

    I still feel that any captcha that treats the honest person as the criminal is not the way to go. It's better to have it going on in the background, like a minimum time for filling out a form or whatever.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    Personally, I think it's too hard. I failed the first attempt, and that would be it for me if the wild. I'm so fed up with capthcas and being treated like a miscreant that I tend to move on when treated like this. It's not clear which finger is which, and those with seeing/cognitive difficulties wold have no chance to get through this barrier.

    I still feel that any captcha that treats the honest person as the criminal is not the way to go. It's better to have it going on in the background, like a minimum time for filling out a form or whatever.
    You've left me no chance for justification . It's a little bit offtopic, but I'm so agree with you! You're right - as it usually happens: to get rid of something bad, people invent something worse . But concerning the last suggestion - IMHO, it won't work reliable enough (and to my deep regret). Remember just recent event - "Eugene Gustman". It just talks for itself. Moreover, I believe, that my graphic CAPTCHA will also be broken one day, and It will be the great moment, by the way: gesture recognition is a challenge for AI nowadays. But, enough of that, please, give me the real hint, what should I do to make my disgusting CAPTCHA even better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestcha View Post
    But, enough of that, please, give me the real hint, what should I do to make my disgusting CAPTCHA even better!
    Heh, my only hint, as I said, is to hide it from legitimate users. These days, I usually don't bother to complete a form when I see a captcha at the bottom, as I find them too difficult/buggy, meaning that it's a waste of time filling out the form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    Heh, my only hint, as I said, is to hide it from legitimate users. These days, I usually don't bother to complete a form when I see a captcha at the bottom, as I find them too difficult/buggy, meaning that it's a waste of time filling out the form.
    No objections. I'm agree, there is too much of it everywhere, even when it's not so necessary.

  16. #16
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    I do think that the idea is innovative and creative, and it's certinaly some new. Who knows if it will become a standard?

    I only tried it once but although it took me a few minutes to work it out, I did fine (I passed!). It is true that it was difficult to recognized each finger but with a bit of patience, I did it.

    The pictures are so dark that it makes it more difficult. So, yes, there's room for improvement and I'm not telling you anything that you don't know yet. Just confirming what you know.

    The next generation could be a benefit for phone users. Just put your finger and I'll take your fingerprint... though in a few years this may be a way to control who visits which.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    I do think that the idea is innovative and creative, and it's certinaly some new. Who knows if it will become a standard?

    I only tried it once but although it took me a few minutes to work it out, I did fine (I passed!). It is true that it was difficult to recognized each finger but with a bit of patience, I did it.

    The pictures are so dark that it makes it more difficult. So, yes, there's room for improvement and I'm not telling you anything that you don't know yet. Just confirming what you know.

    The next generation could be a benefit for phone users. Just put your finger and I'll take your fingerprint... though in a few years this may be a way to control who visits which.
    Thank you, guys. It wasn't planned, but it happened to be a sort of beta-testing . To be honest, the main factor in the development process was to make it as hard for all kind of future bots as possible. Today, I clearly understand the excess of the most of measures for the present moment, so, I give them up one by one (or postpone, better to say). Sure, there is also some space for higher brightness (light sources can be adjusted in certain way) and so on. So, thank you once again! Please, visit my site from time to time - I'll be trying to improve the engine constantly. Welcome!

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    Some news: 1. Just made big and important modification: completely different check-subsystem now, so no matrix is used there - answer accuracy is now controlled by endpoint site mechanics only and can be set as presize as 1px! (could be suitable for real big screens only, equipped by high-dimensional pointing devices, though brute-force attack seems to be practically useless there). It's 8px now - seems optimal. 2. Brightness was increased (much better for energy-saving display configurations, but I feel scenes lack some depth now). 3. Keep thinking about some comfortable input method for keyboard-only devices - nothing worthwhile yet.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Just to make sure this is clear to everyone: it is not a test for humanness. I haven't found a CAPTCHA yet that tests if someone is a human. And, humans send spam.

    I won't do any monkey dances (captchas) for any sites that are not absolutely necessary, like getting access to government services or public transport. I've skipped joining a few forums that looked interesting because they had CAPTCHAs, which is a group of letters that translates to
    "We have a spam problem, and we require our users to fix it for us, because they are lowly users and we would rather make them do a monkey dance than we actually do all the well-known techniques we ourselves are responsible for doing instead."

    I did look at the page, but couldn't figure out what exactly I was supposed to do. I'm probably too stupid for such a thing, which prolly means this works perfectly: you wouldn't want stupid people like me commenting on your whatever website.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Just to make sure this is clear to everyone: it is not a test for humanness. I haven't found a CAPTCHA yet that tests if someone is a human. And, humans send spam.

    I won't do any monkey dances (captchas) for any sites that are not absolutely necessary, like getting access to government services or public transport. I've skipped joining a few forums that looked interesting because they had CAPTCHAs, which is a group of letters that translates to
    "We have a spam problem, and we require our users to fix it for us, because they are lowly users and we would rather make them do a monkey dance than we actually do all the well-known techniques we ourselves are responsible for doing instead."

    I did look at the page, but couldn't figure out what exactly I was supposed to do. I'm probably too stupid for such a thing, which prolly means this works perfectly: you wouldn't want stupid people like me commenting on your whatever website.
    Hi! What can I suggest: just try to treat it as a game! It was a main goal for me here - turn the pain from recognizing of that damn meaningless mess of crippled symbols into something much simpler and even fun may be. Moreover, recent experience tells me, that noticeable learning effect is taking part! For regular captchas I found no such thing (may be I'm stupid). So, take it easy and try!

  21. #21
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    As a user trying to complete a task, one of the last things I want to do is first play a game.

    Imagine going to the grocery store. You just want to buy a freaking pack of milk. You've got a good number of other things on your mind today and you're just going in for some milk, and you've allocated, like, 15 minutes for this simple task.

    But when you get to the door, there's some clown there, asking you if you really want to go inside. "Sure, I want to go inside," you say. The clown laughs at you and asks "Are you SUUUURE??" and you say "yeah dude I'm totally sure I want to go into the store" and this continues for a bit. Then the clown says "well how about we make a balloon animal first? We can make it a cow, since you want to buy some milk, and dontcha know, milk comes from cows! Did you know that? That milk comes from cows? That's why a cow balloon would be so great!"

    At this point if you're me, you want to kill the clown, but I do suspect I'm a more homicidal individual than most of the nice folks here at Sitepoint, so let's say you're getting a slight bit exasperated at this point. You can't get past the clown, 'cause he's blocking the whole doorway, and other people are being blocked by other clowns, but those people all went to balloon-animal-making school and graduated summa cum laude and can whip out a goddamn balloon animal in freaking SECONDS and so they're just whipping out these silly balloon animals (complaining as they do it, of course, because it's stopping them from also buying milk or diapers or whatever the hell, but at least they aren't worrying about *never getting into the store*, so for these folks it's but a minor inconvenience, like putting on pants in the morning), and then there's some other people who went to balloon-animal school and didn't even graduate but, if they try a few times, they often can eventually get it and go inside. And if not, they go to the sleazy convenience store around the corner without clowns to get some milk that might not be expired, if it's Thursday and the date is an even number and everyone else didn't buy it all up yet.

    You, on the other hand, have forks for hands (due to an unfortunate culinary accident), and you could try all damn day to make a single freaking balloon, let alone a whole twisty amazing balloon cow. You've pretty much got something sharp and shiny and in a very sensitive bodily cavity right now.

    So you have a couple of choices:
    - you could stop drinking milk. After all, water comes from the tap inside your house, and your kids can learn to do without luxuries like milk... after all, milk is for baby mammals, not adult ones.
    - you could go ask a handy friend who graduated from balloon school to get some milk for you.
    - go to the ghetto convenience store for the chunky stuff. Still has calcium!
    - even worse, your kids are in balloon school right now. You could get your kids to do it for you. As an adult who wants to be independent as much as all the other adults around there, asking your kids to do something as simple as getting a pack of milk is... well, depressing. Asking your kids to click a button on an inaccessible website, read an error message to you, translate ASL (or English) for you, carry you into a store... this is dependency, and it's a frustrating thing for adults who want to be able to do things all by themselves like everyone else, not be a burden, have jobs and pay taxes and buy houses and marry and have kids and barbecue with the neighbours.
    - rage on the internets whenever the topic of balloon clowns comes up.

    Making a friendlier balloon clown is... not a bad thing per se, and certainly has good intentions! It's also an interesting idea, as far as the method it attempts (even though it has nothing to do with humans, robots, or spam really...). But this might explain why the idea of a better balloon-clown just doesn't fill me with glee.

    If a CAPTCHA were one of those absolutely required pains of life, like death and taxes, then trying to make it fun or suck less can be a worthy endevour, I suppose. However, I do not believe a CAPTCHA is something on the level of filling out taxes, or wearing clothing in public, or eating -- something we pretty much have to do to continue as we want in our society.

    Instead, it's pretty much the #1 barrier of just about every blind person I know. In fact, I'm part of a newly-formed co-op of mostly blind/low-vision programmers and freelance geeks, and our marketing person was pretty much locked out of every possible place we could sign up for to get our press releases out into the new world by CAPTCHAs (her Web-Visum plugin wasn't working for some reason... it's all working now tho). Making them more fun wouldn't have prevented her from being locked out of places, wouldn't have prevented her from being pretty much stopped from doing her job, wouldn't have meant much of the internet is basically blocked to the folks in my company.

    The insistence of determining if a user is human by determining if they can see, or have certain recognition skills, or certain motor skills, or can add 2 and 2 (bots do this much better than simple finger-counters such as myself) is really the main problem. Of the Internets. Of the first world, and increasingly of the third world as the internets get more important there and the numbers of disabled are much much higher than in the first world.

    None of this is a particular critique of this particular attempt at CAPTCHA, to be clear and fair. I just think it's not solving what I see as the real problem. It's solving some other problem, something to do with creativity and CAPTCHA options, I think,

  22. #22
    Mouse catcher silver trophy Stevie D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestcha View Post
    Hi! Please, guys, take a look here: http://gestcha.com - this is a hand gesture CAPTCHA prototype, that I finished just yesterday (it works). Please, tell me, could it be useful or just a waste of time?
    I managed to make it work, but quite frankly the accessibility and usability there is horrendous. It took me ages to work out what I was trying to do, and whether it mattered that the hand was reversed and some fingers were curled. When they get crossed over, it's even more difficult. Yes, I managed, but I'm trying to imagine my parents coming across that and even understanding it, let alone successfully completing it, and the answer is simply "does not compute", and they are reasonably computer savvy people who buy lots of stuff on Amazon and eBay, look up venues and restaurants, book holidays, do internet banking and so on.

    I was going to critique the instructions, but actually I'm not going to, because even if the instructions were better I wouldn't want to see this deployed on actual websites. Any manual captcha system is a nuisance, when things like time traps and honeypots are generally pretty successful, and anything as complex as this is going to have a monumentally high failure rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    As a user trying to complete a task, one of the last things I want to do is first play a game.

    Imagine going to the grocery store. You just want to buy a freaking pack of milk. You've got a good number of other things on your mind today and you're just going in for some milk, and you've allocated, like, 15 minutes for this simple task.

    But when you get to the door, there's some clown there, asking you if you really want to go inside. "Sure, I want to go inside," you say. The clown laughs at you and asks "Are you SUUUURE??" and you say "yeah dude I'm totally sure I want to go into the store" and this continues for a bit. Then the clown says "well how about we make a balloon animal first? We can make it a cow, since you want to buy some milk, and dontcha know, milk comes from cows! Did you know that? That milk comes from cows? That's why a cow balloon would be so great!"
    Poes – I wish, I wish, I wish that you would accept awards so that we could recognise the outstanding contributions you make to these discussions. I really did LOL as I was reading that, it is both brilliantly funny and also absolutely perfectly true as well.

  23. #23
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie D View Post

    Poes – I wish, I wish, I wish that you would accept awards so that we could recognise the outstanding contributions you make to these discussions. I really did LOL as I was reading that, it is both brilliantly funny and also absolutely perfectly true as well.
    Indeed. I'm in full agreement there.

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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie D View Post
    Poes – I wish, I wish, I wish that you would accept awards so that we could recognise the outstanding contributions you make to these discussions. I really did LOL as I was reading that, it is both brilliantly funny and also absolutely perfectly true as well.[/font]
    +2. But I'm not going to fret over it right now, as I feel like going and making some balloon animals. I think I'll make a cat.

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    Wow! It was a cry from the hart! Come on, guys, don't get me wrong. I'm just an ordinary guy, trying to turn something that is real bad, insecure and inaccessible by almost everybody into something, that is may be just slightly more accessible - that's all. Frankly speaking, IMHO, captcha is a curse of free web, and the only way to get rid of it permanently (also IMHO) is to give up the idea of anonymity itself. So, the only way to get into the shop without bothering the clown in the doorway is to replace this clown by a policeman. To show him a passport every time can be much better idea? (I'm sure - more convenient for some people). May be both? To give you freedom of choice? Why there should be somebody in the doorway AT ALL? - you could ask (and cry . Hey, internet is not a real life, sure, but it's not a dream-world also. It has some obvious advantages, but disadvantages (derived from advantages, by the way) as well, so ... this off-topic is real HUGE, but meaningless and useless, I think.


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