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Thread: Enterprise PHP

  1. #26
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Doubtful that everything hangs in the balance due to Microsoft's Certifications ?
    Umm - I don't understand what the this sentence means.
    Mattias Johansson
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    Another issue I see is the number of new people to PHP. It seems on some forums that there's just tons of people just starting out. Maybe a lot of non-php people see this and think that all php people are like this. Yeah, there are some very good people on this forum and such, but the huge ratio of new to old just seems tremendous.

    It might just be me seeing all of the new, but I get tired of explaining $_GET a dozen times.
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world,
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  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I think PHP is ready for the enterprise. I don't think it's the best solution, but if there are VERY good developers working with it I think it can be fine.

    The reality of the Radwin/Zawodny thing is that they both understand PHP's limitations, and when they recommended to Yahoo that they take PHP onboard it was because it was the best thing out there for them, and because they were trying to move Yahoo away from using their own language.

    In that respect PHP was the best move at the time, and probably still is.

    But, it isn't used for everything, far from it, it's used mainly in SELECT-heavy areas, though a lot of new properties are being done in PHP.

    That said, there are 3-4 properties using ASP and .NET as well so it's really hard to gauge...

    At the end of the day, I think Java and .NET are more suited to enterprise development (for those who think there's no difference, I'd wager you've never worked with application/load balancing servers, right?), but that PHP/ASP/CFM can do it as well.

    J
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    What I was meaning is that a technology/language doesn't rely on it's advancement based solely on certification by the technology's owner;

    ie .NET and Microsoft's widely accepted certification no ? As an example, thus for PHP to be accepted as ''Enterprise'' the language doesn't wholly need developer's to be certified...

    Hope that helps ?

  5. #30
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    What I was meaning is that a technology/language doesn't rely on it's advancement based solely on certification by the technology's owner;

    ie .NET and Microsoft's widely accepted certification no ? As an example, thus for PHP to be accepted as ''Enterprise'' the language doesn't wholly need developer's to be certified...
    Ah, now I get it, thanks!

    Well, it's hugely innacurate for someone to state that .NET technology mainly relies on MCAD/MSCD etc for skill-measurement, since there are plenty of colleges and universitys that are implementing .NET into their lesson plan, and a degree often weighs more than a little MCAD.

    With that said, MCAD is a very cheap and fast (uh well, compared to a degree, I mean) to get prove your skills, and get a higher salary. I do belive the MCAD is so far the only industry-wide-accepted certification for .NET, but that's understandable, since it's so new. For older Microsoft products, there are more recognized non-microsoft certifications.
    Mattias Johansson
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    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    I think PHP is ready for the enterprise. I don't think it's the best solution, but if there are VERY good developers working with it I think it can be fine.

    The reality of the Radwin/Zawodny thing is that they both understand PHP's limitations, and when they recommended to Yahoo that they take PHP onboard it was because it was the best thing out there for them, and because they were trying to move Yahoo away from using their own language.

    In that respect PHP was the best move at the time, and probably still is.

    But, it isn't used for everything, far from it, it's used mainly in SELECT-heavy areas, though a lot of new properties are being done in PHP.

    That said, there are 3-4 properties using ASP and .NET as well so it's really hard to gauge...

    At the end of the day, I think Java and .NET are more suited to enterprise development (for those who think there's no difference, I'd wager you've never worked with application/load balancing servers, right?), but that PHP/ASP/CFM can do it as well.

    J
    I second this.
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    Well, it's hugely innacurate for someone to state that .NET technology mainly relies on MCAD/MSCD etc for skill-measurement....
    Umm... In some cases true, although myself for example I am not certified although I would have to say that I am competent in PHP.

    Does this disqualify myself from a position whereby another candidate who has been certified is applying for the same post ?

    Certification helps a lot but it does not guarantee that the certified person is more comptetent etc if you see where I'm at ?

  8. #33
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Does this disqualify myself from a position whereby another candidate who has been certified is applying for the same post ?
    If they demand some kind of certification and/or degree for the post (which is often the case), then hell yeah! ;9

    Certification helps a lot but it does not guarantee that the certified person is more comptetent etc if you see where I'm at ?
    Yeah, I see where you are at, but that's just theoretical. In reality, certifications and degrees matters A LOT. If you have little prior work experience and a weak/nonexistent portfolio, it incredibly important. A certification does guarantee one thing, and one thing only, that the person in question knows his stuff, which is what the employer wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Umm... In some cases true, although myself for example I am not certified although I would have to say that I am competent in PHP.
    So you say, but if I'm to employ you, how do I know you actually are? I have 85 other people here who also say they are competent. Among them I have 15 people with computer science degrees and 25 with certifications in the appropriate category. Why should I take you into an interview?

    And the immideate followup question, if you are qualified, why haven't you gotten a certification? It's pretty cheap if you already know the stuff.
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    Certification certainly doesn't gurantee anything, in fact these days I'd rather see someone do a test app for me for when they came to an interview. Why? Well certification is all well and good, but these days a chimp could get certification on MCSD etc. because of the boot camps they have, you cram for a week, take an exam, 3 days later you've forgotten it all because you just parrot fashion learnt it and didn't actually experience real world use of it - now that's what makes you learn and remember, real word experience and practice.
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  10. #35
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    Certification certainly doesn't gurantee anything, in fact these days I'd rather see someone do a test app for me for when they came to an interview. Why? Well certification is all well and good, but these days a chimp could get certification on MCSD etc. because of the boot camps they have, you cram for a week, take an exam, 3 days later you've forgotten it all because you just parrot fashion learnt it and didn't actually experience real world use of it - now that's what makes you learn and remember, real word experience and practice.
    That's true, if you are going to hire a peron with a certification, you better ensure that they have real-world experience too boot. Otherwise, the certification is worthless. With that said, I think like tests like MCAD are a little too complex to parrotlearn.
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  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    It depends, I can't say I've looked in great deal at MCAD but as a guess the examination is done in parts/modules? If so then it's as easy as any other test to parrot fashion learn it. Which is a shame, because there are people out there who have put a great deal of effort in to taking these exams and really do know their stuff, just that these boot-camps undermine the credability of the certifications.
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  12. #37
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    It depends, I can't say I've looked in great deal at MCAD but as a guess the examination is done in parts/modules? If so then it's as easy as any other test to parrot fashion learn it.
    The MCAD has three exam tests. One is for web applications, one is for web services, and one is for SQL Server.

    The first one demands three books, two big and one huge. Nobody could parrotlearn such amounts of information. They could, of course, if they had access to the tests, parrotlearn the answers, I guess. I don't know how a bootcamp works, to be honest.

    Which is a shame, because there are people out there who have put a great deal of effort in to taking these exams and really do know their stuff, just that these boot-camps undermine the credability of the certifications.
    They are nothing compared to the braindumps and warez scene for the complete tests. With that said, there are always people who will lie, cheat and go through bootcamps etc. just to get employed. Hopefully, these people will get stumped on references or interview, but at worst, they'll be shot down at the trial emplyoment. I personally don't think you should discount certifications, but then again, I'm not an employer. Does anyone here have some real-world insight into this?
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  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Karl's Avatar
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    I wouldn't count them out completely, just take them with a big pinch of salt.
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  14. #39
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl
    I wouldn't count them out completely, just take them with a big pinch of salt.
    Then we agree. But when you're employing someone, aren't you taking pretty much everything with a pinch of salt?
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    Certification certainly doesn't gurantee anything, in fact these days I'd rather see someone do a test app for me for when they came to an interview. Why? Well certification is all well and good, but these days a chimp could get certification on MCSD etc.
    Well said

    No disrespect to your self M Johansson although the above quotation has a very valid point yes ?

  16. #41
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I still have no clue what this has to do with .NET or PHP in the enterprise. It's a discussion on certification in general. For taht matter it's turned into a discussion on education in general.
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  17. #42
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    No disrespect to your self M Johansson although the above quotation has a very valid point yes ?
    I agree with jeremy that we are going offtopic.

    Off Topic:

    But as I've stated in my last few posts, that quote does have a very valid point. And I guess I misstated myself when I said a certification was a guarantee for a person to know his stuff. I should of course said "valid certification" or something like that.

    With that said, NOTHING is a guarantee if you see it like that. Faked degrees, fake references, fake personality, etc.
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    Off Topic Folks ? Umm...

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    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi.

    I think it is a confidence thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by neil100
    Just look at one simple aspect, templating, .net and java both have standard methods for using template tags, on the other hand PHP seems to have an endless supply of templating systems available (smarty, fast template, ETS, template tamer, yabs and so on...)...
    I think you are on the right track here, but it is more subtle than this. Java has JSP, Struts and Velocity for example. It matters much more with the intefaces e.g. iterators again, method naming conventions, JDO, etc. I can read Java code straight off as it has a common style (kind of). Also interfaces are enforced in Java which helps "correctness".

    Until they can throw off the PHP4 engine yoke I don't think even Zend could seriously push PHP as "Enterprise". There are some disturbing reference issues (and bugs) that do anything but inspire confidence.

    Perl doesn't cut it either.

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    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    What about classic ASP? Is it enterprise technology. It's supported by Microsoft, so I assume it is. Though PHP is much faster than ASP, judging by various benchmarks.
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    I doubt PHP will gain any significant share of the "enterprise" market before it has a decent class library and (a) more standardized development process(es) i.e. PHP needs to pick a few of the 49 gazillion ways (with their accompanying frameworks) you can develop a web site with it, and make them the standard, so that it's possible to get certified and educated in PHP, and actually have it mean anything.

    After that happens, were talkin'!
    And if ASP is enterprise technology, what about its lack of framework and standartirization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika
    What about classic ASP? Is it enterprise technology. It's supported by Microsoft, so I assume it is. Though PHP is much faster than ASP, judging by various benchmarks.

    And if ASP is enterprise technology, what about its lack of framework and standartirization?
    ASP isn't any better for enterprise than PHP, which is exactly why Microsoft done a total revamp and came up with ASP.NET, ASP simply didn't cut it against Java when it came to enterprise applications.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil100
    ASP isn't any better for enterprise than PHP, which is exactly why Microsoft done a total revamp and came up with ASP.NET, ASP simply didn't cut it against Java when it came to enterprise applications.
    Yes, you'r right. Class ASP is beaten by PHP as well!

  23. #48
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika
    Yes, you'r right. Class ASP is beaten by PHP as well!
    Yup. ASP never had the strength to compete on a bigger scale, with Java, so MS made .NET.
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    lean mean coding machine cosmo's Avatar
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    I have never developed at the enterprise level. But from what I have read elsewhere, PHP could make it to the enterprise, not by competing with the like of Java/.NET, but by working with them.

    You know what they say: If you can't beat em, join em [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]


    This is evident from Zend's efforts to integrate PHP with Java. So, PHP may not turnout to be *the* solution for enterprise, but a part of it.
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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I love that position. "Let's let PHP do Java's work... So we can retain twice the staff, not use our existing IDE's that we used when we developed the backend and have 2 separate style/development guides"...
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