Enterprise PHP

**Taoism** · Jul 24, 2003, 07:57

I originally found this link in a news post on the php|architect site. (You can find the news post a few pages back in their archive).

It is a link to speaking notes of Michael J. Radwin from Yahoo talking about one year of PHP use at Yahoo.
http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/

There are occassional threads about "is PHP Enterprise ready?" - Well, given the size of Yahoo, I think they make an interesting point of reference for any debate.

Cheers,
Keith.

**Captain Proton** · Jul 24, 2003, 09:59

Personally I think this whole "Enterprise Ready-ness" of a language is such a b*s.. concept, like having a couple of interface, private, protected and abstract statements suddenly make a language Enterprise ready..

Also, I am convinced that now with PHP 5's OO support being improved, people will find other things to complain about, about PHP not being enterprise ready.

Yahoo and many others prove that PHP is just as well suited to write 'enterprise applications' (yach, such an empty term invented by marketing people..) as any other language, if you ask me. Some languages are just better suited for some tasks than others.

**Gybbyl** · Jul 24, 2003, 11:34

even in php4 you can emulate all of the access limitiations and class improvements from php5 -- to me, all enterprise means is just:

'additions to make a language child safe for people who suck *** at writing secure scripts'

I.E.
field access (don't touch that because it contains a cleartext password!)
method access (hands off -- this method changes the cleartext password)
constant methods (don't overwrite our working, secure method with one that sucks)
interfaces (so we can show you how to do this so you don't mess up -- and if you DO mess up, then you'll get screamed at)
abstract classes (we'll provide all of the main functionality, you just write some simple methods to make it look like you actually did something)

I mean, I love having this stuff, but that's all it essentially does. Stop the bad programmer from ruining something good.

Edit:

In retrospect (all 3 minutes of it), I can see all of my sarcasm and pessimism coming out in a big parade of intertwined thoughts and rants -- And I like it.

**HarryF** · Jul 24, 2003, 12:30

To quote Martin Fowler in "Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture";

Enterprise applications are about the display, manipulation and storage of large amounts of often complex data and the support or automation of business processes with that data.

That doesn't rule out PHP in any way.

Perhaps the greatest PHP success (or failure depending on your perspective on it's design) is Sourceforge though, not Yahoo, SF being alot more complex.

**Taoism** · Jul 24, 2003, 12:38

Bah, I wanna slug SF half the time because it seems to load slow

But really, SF is pretty impressive.

I brought up Yahoo because who in the world hasn't heard of Y!?

Cheers,
Keith.

**Dr Livingston** · Jul 24, 2003, 13:22

My Sister In Law's Mother LoL

Honestly though folks there are still people out there who actually think the Internet is merely Email; A web page is an alien concept to them.

Let's all show some sympathy for them aye ?

**Gybbyl** · Jul 25, 2003, 07:54

Why do they need our sympathy? All of my grandparents know what the internet is, and only like half of them use it -- All you have to do is turn on your TV, and there is bound to be some news report about 'hackers' (i despise the context that they use hackers in *adamantly* btw) or the latest web site from Microsoft.

**Dr Livingston** · Jul 25, 2003, 08:31

Microsoft ? Not recently here in the UK although there are some adverts for IBM E Business solutions mostly of what I remember...

Plus there are folks who've never even seen nor used a microwave never mind e-mail

Hill Billy's I think they're referered to as ?

**bonk** · Jul 25, 2003, 09:13

It's hillbilly, they live right up the hill from me, up in them thar hills. I'm from East Tennessee, where I think they originated. Yeah, I'm mostly hillbilly myself, but I have indoor plumming

Also, I think the big problem with web pages is people think it's easy to do. yeah, just open Microsoft Word and then .... lol

**Dr Livingston** · Jul 25, 2003, 11:08

Exactly... Anybody with a WP and they think they're a web developer... I've seen those people and I basically just make a complete **** out of them... Like what do I know with my DB knowledge and PHP scripting ? When they know HTML...

...

... etc etc

Over here in Scotland hillbilies are known as chockters; difficult to pronounce as well as to spell it but it basically means tough.

Myself ? I'm a town person me, or a yockle... don't ask

**sweatje** · Jul 25, 2003, 11:25

Off Topic:

Originally Posted by Dr Livingston

Myself ? I'm a town person me, or a yockle... don't ask

Would that be a "local yockle"? Never knew the origin of that coloquialism

**Ghandi** · Jul 25, 2003, 11:26

...so now that we are back to the Enterprise PHP topic...

Do you think now that PHP is going to be "Enterprise" ready that larger companies will begin adopting a PHP as their intranet/extranet/internet solutions?

**hillsy** · Jul 25, 2003, 11:49

In all honesty, I think the term "Enterprise" is a load of marketing yarbles.

PHP is no less "enterprise" ready than ASP. ASP.Net is a bit of a different story (for large scale apps anyway).

PHP will be adopted in the "enterprise" when a decision maker who has a clue about it decides it's the right tool for the job. But if they don't know it, they're more likely to go with the commerical solution every time.

**bonk** · Jul 25, 2003, 12:01

I think the term mostly refers to as a language that a business would consider using. PHP is getting close to being accepted by the majority of the business world, it's coming

**Viflux** · Jul 25, 2003, 12:10

I think the term would be more suitable to designers/coders than to a language.

Any language in the right hands can be used to do powerful things.

That being said, PHP in the right hands could be a very powerful business tool, especially considering it's licensing fees and initial cost when compared to more "advanced" alternatives.

**hillsy** · Jul 25, 2003, 13:51

Originally Posted by bonk

I think the term mostly refers to as a language that a business would consider using

Exactly.

Originally Posted by hillsy

PHP will be adopted in the "enterprise" when a decision maker who has a clue about it decides it's the right tool for the job

Thing is, not a lot of decision makers have a clue about it in my experience. Not that they're stupid people - far from it (mostly

) - but they haven't had the exposure. Let's face it, PHP is pretty "new" compared to anything that has Microsoft stamped on it.

It's a useful tool and eventually I'm sure it will gain quite wide acceptance. But I think it can do that on its own (current) merits without "improving" it for the "enterprise". Often as not, these things are a matter of perception and status quo as anything else.

In other words, I'm not sure it's totally a technical question. Though technical improvements are still always welcome I guess

**Dr Livingston** · Jul 25, 2003, 14:12

Sweatje -

Local ? As to Elgin... Nope I'm from the South / Central Belt of Scotland and proud of it... William Wallace Country;

Freedom.... Ahem.

Seen Braveheart with Mel Gibson no ? If you've seen this film you'll at least have a sense of what I mean by ''Freedom....'' I hope ?

**M. Johansson** · Jul 25, 2003, 22:39

I doubt PHP will gain any significant share of the "enterprise" market before it has a decent class library and (a) more standardized development process(es) i.e. PHP needs to pick a few of the 49 gazillion ways (with their accompanying frameworks) you can develop a web site with it, and make them the standard, so that it's possible to get certified and educated in PHP, and actually have it mean anything.

After that happens, were talkin'!

**Phil.Roberts** · Jul 26, 2003, 01:50

The "class library" issue is a paper barrier IMO. It's like saying English isn't an "Enterprise Language" because we have too many words that sound the same but mean totally different things. What PHP needs is MARKETING.

**Cam** · Jul 26, 2003, 02:42

Originally Posted by Phil.Roberts

The "class library" issue is a paper barrier IMO. It's like saying English isn't an "Enterprise Language" because we have too many words that sound the same but mean totally different things. What PHP needs is MARKETING.

Yeah, lets get some hot chicks laying all over the PHP oval and smack the images on every major web site around

**neil100** · Jul 26, 2003, 03:19

Originally Posted by Phil.Roberts

The "class library" issue is a paper barrier IMO. It's like saying English isn't an "Enterprise Language" because we have too many words that sound the same but mean totally different things. What PHP needs is MARKETING.

I totally disagree, the single biggest problem with PHP is lack of standardization.

Take .net (or java) for example, every .net developer will be familiar with certain concepts and the .net framework, therefore when people have to work together they have a common base to start from, with PHP there is no common base and everyone just uses their prefered options, which is fine if you work on your own or with the same few people all the time, but when it comes to Enterprise you have to work with many different people and this lack of standization severaly hampers PHP in that respect.

Just look at one simple aspect, templating, .net and java both have standard methods for using template tags, on the other hand PHP seems to have an endless supply of templating systems available (smarty, fast template, ETS, template tamer, yabs and so on...), with everyone using different systems whenever people want to work together on a large "enterprise" project people will have to learn yet another templating system, which is not conducive to effeicient development. This can also be extended to eveything else PHP such as frameworks, class libraries etc, it also doesn't help that the class library that PHP is trying to push as the standard (PEAR) is not up to much.

Originally Posted by M.Johansson

so that it's possible to get certified and educated in PHP, and actually have it mean anything.

Yeah because Microsoft certificates mean so much.

**Dr Livingston** · Jul 26, 2003, 03:33

Doubtful that everything hangs in the balance due to Microsoft's Certifications ? There is far more to the Internet and the development world than merely Microsoft folks...

If we all had one template standard, etc etc then IMO this would hinder each of our individual creativity if you see what I mean for example ?

But yes, PHP does need marketing and it need to be aimed at the right people; those who make decisions and actually have the influence to do something about what technology is used to develop the software no ?

**Phil.Roberts** · Jul 26, 2003, 03:48

So, basically because PHP is extremely flexible and doesn't tie you into lockstep methods of doing anything it isn't suitable for enterprise applications?

Pardon me if I find that rather silly.

**neil100** · Jul 26, 2003, 04:45

Originally Posted by Phil.Roberts

So, basically because PHP is extremely flexible and doesn't tie you into lockstep methods of doing anything it isn't suitable for enterprise applications?

Pardon me if I find that rather silly.

Your pardoned.

I personally find it far more silly have to learn the same thing over and over again just because one project uses smarty, eclipse and PEAR, whilst another uses fast template, eoscene and their own custom library they built, because PEAR was crap.

Incidently .NET nor Java tie you into methods of doing things, people are quite able to write their own templating systems if they want, but most people realise Microsoft and Sun have done pretty decent jobs, so spend the time doing something more useful.

I would liken working with PHP in relation to enterprise, to a meeting where everyone speaks a different language and they need an interpreter to communicate, very inefficient and slow.

**M. Johansson** · Jul 26, 2003, 07:24

Originally Posted by Dr Livingston

If we all had one template standard, etc etc then IMO this would hinder each of our individual creativity if you see what I mean for example ?

Neil already said it, but just because you have a standard doesn't mean you are tied to use it. You are in no way tied to using the Web Forms framework when developing ASP.NET pages, but it's a very good standard to have, since you can, as an outsider-developer, jump right into a project and understand it immideatly.

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