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    Enterprise PHP

    I originally found this link in a news post on the php|architect site. (You can find the news post a few pages back in their archive).

    It is a link to speaking notes of Michael J. Radwin from Yahoo talking about one year of PHP use at Yahoo.
    http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/

    There are occassional threads about "is PHP Enterprise ready?" - Well, given the size of Yahoo, I think they make an interesting point of reference for any debate.

    Cheers,
    Keith.

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    Personally I think this whole "Enterprise Ready-ness" of a language is such a b*s.. concept, like having a couple of interface, private, protected and abstract statements suddenly make a language Enterprise ready..

    Also, I am convinced that now with PHP 5's OO support being improved, people will find other things to complain about, about PHP not being enterprise ready.

    Yahoo and many others prove that PHP is just as well suited to write 'enterprise applications' (yach, such an empty term invented by marketing people..) as any other language, if you ask me. Some languages are just better suited for some tasks than others.

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    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    even in php4 you can emulate all of the access limitiations and class improvements from php5 -- to me, all enterprise means is just:

    'additions to make a language child safe for people who suck *** at writing secure scripts'

    I.E.
    field access (don't touch that because it contains a cleartext password!)
    method access (hands off -- this method changes the cleartext password)
    constant methods (don't overwrite our working, secure method with one that sucks)
    interfaces (so we can show you how to do this so you don't mess up -- and if you DO mess up, then you'll get screamed at)
    abstract classes (we'll provide all of the main functionality, you just write some simple methods to make it look like you actually did something)

    I mean, I love having this stuff, but that's all it essentially does. Stop the bad programmer from ruining something good.

    Edit:

    In retrospect (all 3 minutes of it), I can see all of my sarcasm and pessimism coming out in a big parade of intertwined thoughts and rants -- And I like it.
    Ryan

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    To quote Martin Fowler in "Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture";

    Enterprise applications are about the display, manipulation and storage of large amounts of often complex data and the support or automation of business processes with that data.
    That doesn't rule out PHP in any way.

    Perhaps the greatest PHP success (or failure depending on your perspective on it's design) is Sourceforge though, not Yahoo, SF being alot more complex.

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    Bah, I wanna slug SF half the time because it seems to load slow

    But really, SF is pretty impressive.

    I brought up Yahoo because who in the world hasn't heard of Y!?

    Cheers,
    Keith.

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    My Sister In Law's Mother LoL

    Honestly though folks there are still people out there who actually think the Internet is merely Email; A web page is an alien concept to them.

    Let's all show some sympathy for them aye ?

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    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    Why do they need our sympathy? All of my grandparents know what the internet is, and only like half of them use it -- All you have to do is turn on your TV, and there is bound to be some news report about 'hackers' (i despise the context that they use hackers in *adamantly* btw) or the latest web site from Microsoft.
    Ryan

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    Microsoft ? Not recently here in the UK although there are some adverts for IBM E Business solutions mostly of what I remember...

    Plus there are folks who've never even seen nor used a microwave never mind e-mail

    Hill Billy's I think they're referered to as ?

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    It's hillbilly, they live right up the hill from me, up in them thar hills. I'm from East Tennessee, where I think they originated. Yeah, I'm mostly hillbilly myself, but I have indoor plumming

    Also, I think the big problem with web pages is people think it's easy to do. yeah, just open Microsoft Word and then .... lol
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world,
    those who can read binary and those who can't.

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    Exactly... Anybody with a WP and they think they're a web developer... I've seen those people and I basically just make a complete **** out of them... Like what do I know with my DB knowledge and PHP scripting ? When they know HTML...

    ... ... etc etc

    Over here in Scotland hillbilies are known as chockters; difficult to pronounce as well as to spell it but it basically means tough.

    Myself ? I'm a town person me, or a yockle... don't ask

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    eschew sesquipedalians silver trophy sweatje's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Livingston
    Myself ? I'm a town person me, or a yockle... don't ask
    Would that be a "local yockle"? Never knew the origin of that coloquialism
    Jason Sweat ZCE - jsweat_php@yahoo.com
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    Detestable (adjective): software that isn't testable.

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    SitePoint Zealot Ghandi's Avatar
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    ...so now that we are back to the Enterprise PHP topic...

    Do you think now that PHP is going to be "Enterprise" ready that larger companies will begin adopting a PHP as their intranet/extranet/internet solutions?
    W.W.G.D. :: What Would Gandhi Do
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    Yugo full of anvils bronze trophy hillsy's Avatar
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    In all honesty, I think the term "Enterprise" is a load of marketing yarbles.

    PHP is no less "enterprise" ready than ASP. ASP.Net is a bit of a different story (for large scale apps anyway).

    PHP will be adopted in the "enterprise" when a decision maker who has a clue about it decides it's the right tool for the job. But if they don't know it, they're more likely to go with the commerical solution every time.
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    I think the term mostly refers to as a language that a business would consider using. PHP is getting close to being accepted by the majority of the business world, it's coming
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world,
    those who can read binary and those who can't.

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    Yugo full of anvils bronze trophy hillsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonk
    I think the term mostly refers to as a language that a business would consider using
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by hillsy
    PHP will be adopted in the "enterprise" when a decision maker who has a clue about it decides it's the right tool for the job
    Thing is, not a lot of decision makers have a clue about it in my experience. Not that they're stupid people - far from it (mostly ) - but they haven't had the exposure. Let's face it, PHP is pretty "new" compared to anything that has Microsoft stamped on it.

    It's a useful tool and eventually I'm sure it will gain quite wide acceptance. But I think it can do that on its own (current) merits without "improving" it for the "enterprise". Often as not, these things are a matter of perception and status quo as anything else.

    In other words, I'm not sure it's totally a technical question. Though technical improvements are still always welcome I guess
    that's me!
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    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    I think the term would be more suitable to designers/coders than to a language.

    Any language in the right hands can be used to do powerful things.


    That being said, PHP in the right hands could be a very powerful business tool, especially considering it's licensing fees and initial cost when compared to more "advanced" alternatives.

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    SitePoint Guru asterix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viflux
    That being said, PHP in the right hands could be a very powerful business tool, especially considering it's licensing fees and initial cost when compared to more "advanced" alternatives.
    Not many CIOs are gonna say "gimme 200K less in my budget, thats because we'll use php and save some dosh".

    AFAIK PHP does still not do transactions - correct? Until it does, it won't be being used in many enterprises, at least not those run by the same CIOs who always trundle out this bit of *wisdom* to justify huge budgets.

    So "Enterprise" has not much to do with the capabailities of an App. server or language, more about how "accepted" it is in business. Frankly, the biggest impediment to PHP are PHP coders. Now don't get me wrong (I code in PHP too), I'm arguing from the CIO point of view. PHP Coder's are still seen as an unwashed horde of freshmen looking to earn some beer money on the side - and there are plenty who still fit that mould. PHP is popular, free and powerful, of course it attracts people who have just learned HTML and are moving up. The CIO nightmare is having inexperienced coders & project managers working on high profile i*net projects, that's just the kind of "business risk", i.e. "personal embarassment risk" that they are never ever gonna take.

    Saying "We did this in PHP" still sounds like "We knocked this up in BASIC" or "We had this done on the cheap", which basically are arguments which do not get spoken at board meetings. PHPers need to change that bias against them in order to ultimately get more work / more money from their PHP skills.

    Why has MySQL introduced certification? Its because they've realized the same thing that cisco, sun, MS, oracle and the rest realized earlier: the need customers to have faith not just in the technology, but the people implementing the technology. PHP sorely und surely needs one single authorized and accredited group of examinations leading to certification, something like:

    Certified PHP Web Site Developer
    (DB interaction, installation, setup, troubleshooting, programming, OO programming)

    Certified PHP Solutions Architect
    Same as above, plus transaction stuff, message queuing, load balancing, requirements analysis, extensions programming and so on.

    Then there would at last be a solid foundation on which CIOs could build their trust, and PHP could enter areas where it traditionally has had little chance.

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    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by asterix
    Not many CIOs are gonna say "gimme 200K less in my budget, thats because we'll use php and save some dosh".
    But many might like to play with other cool stuff with that 200k, or perhaps hire more people so they can have more staff, or whatever. They like to spend - having an extra 200k lets you engage in more spending activity.

    AFAIK PHP does still not do transactions - correct? Until it does, it won't be being used in many enterprises, at least not those run by the same CIOs who always trundle out this bit of *wisdom* to justify huge budgets.
    PHP has nothing to do with transactions. Those are handled by the database, of which PHP can deal with many.

    So "Enterprise" has not much to do with the capabailities of an App. server or language, more about how "accepted" it is in business. Frankly, the biggest impediment to PHP are PHP coders. Now don't get me wrong (I code in PHP too), I'm arguing from the CIO point of view. PHP Coder's are still seen as an unwashed horde of freshmen looking to earn some beer money on the side - and there are plenty who still fit that mould. PHP is popular, free and powerful, of course it attracts people who have just learned HTML and are moving up. The CIO nightmare is having inexperienced coders & project managers working on high profile i*net projects, that's just the kind of "business risk", i.e. "personal embarassment risk" that they are never ever gonna take.
    So they'll spend a couple million on an overpriced project that never quites get done, in which time they can move on to another company, and that's OK. But dropping $100k on a PHP prototype which doesn't do everything right on day 1 is an embarrassment they can't live with? (Seen both happen) There need to be some expectations management on both sides of the equation. Also, what happened to companies actually fostering learning and development amongst their staff (perhaps even cultivating some loyalty)? Taking people who are talented but maybe a bit raw and shaping them into 'proper developers'? Maybe it's because most managers aren't very good at that sort of thing...

    Saying "We did this in PHP" still sounds like "We knocked this up in BASIC" or "We had this done on the cheap", which basically are arguments which do not get spoken at board meetings. PHPers need to change that bias against them in order to ultimately get more work / more money from their PHP skills.
    But part of that 'bias' stems from people thinking that PHP can't do things ('transactions'?). Letting people know that PHP is actually at the heart and center of a billion dollar operation *should* inspire some level of interest or respect from potential adopters, and not automatically make them assume that people were just doing something 'on the cheap'. One of our students came from a large newspaper organization (HUGE in the US, not sure about abroad so much - 100 dailies and about 8 million paid subscribers). About 60% of their content was touched by PHP processes somewhere along the production line. That's not peanuts, and the fact that they were bringing in outside PHP consultants and sending staff to training seemed to confirm their belief in using it long term, and that it wasn't just a 'fad' or a 'band-aid'.

    Why has MySQL introduced certification? Its because they've realized the same thing that cisco, sun, MS, oracle and the rest realized earlier: the need customers to have faith not just in the technology, but the people implementing the technology. PHP sorely und surely needs one single authorized and accredited group of examinations leading to certification, something like:

    Certified PHP Web Site Developer
    (DB interaction, installation, setup, troubleshooting, programming, OO programming)

    Certified PHP Solutions Architect
    Same as above, plus transaction stuff, message queuing, load balancing, requirements analysis, extensions programming and so on.

    Then there would at last be a solid foundation on which CIOs could build their trust, and PHP could enter areas where it traditionally has had little chance.
    Biggest problem is WHO does the certification? PHP isn't owned by one corp. We've planned on doing PHP certification, but initial feedback from potential students is that they wanted to only do things 'over the web', which defeats the purpose of 'real' certification (imo). Too many cheaters, etc. Also, the company itself. Although we've been doing training for over 2 years (http://www.tapinternet.com/php/), not many people know about us, and thus 'certification' from us may not hold much weight. But maybe it would? So, until someone can work out a certification process with a large test-taking org, it probably won't happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    PHP has nothing to do with transactions. Those are handled by the database, of which PHP can deal with many.
    Transactions don't necessarily have to take place in the database. Take a look at Java Transaction Service, Using CORBA transactions, Microsoft Transaction Server and CICS ("CICS can support over nine hundred thousand concurrent users" yikes!)

    Transaction servers are only one piece of the enterprise application puzzle. There are other types of middleware like message oriented middleware, object request brokers and remote procedure calls.

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    SitePoint Guru asterix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    But many might like to play with other cool stuff with that 200k, or perhaps hire more people so they can have more staff, or whatever. They like to spend - having an extra 200k lets you engage in more spending activity.
    Spend? No, I don't think so (and being a CIO I am in a position to judge They like Big Budgets. Give me a Budget of 2M, and I utilize 1.8M, then I save the company 10%, and use that argument to prove how cool I am & can be entrusted with more money . But thats a difficult game and a different topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    PHP has nothing to do with transactions. Those are handled by the database, of which PHP can deal with many.
    Thats the problem. PHP doesn't AFAIK do transactions, so arguing that some other layer (vendor) should do it is shooting yourself in the foot. There are many good reasons why databases should not manage business transactions. Ever heard of two-phase commit? There is no reason why transactions shouldn't be offered by a programming language, unless you concede that the language in question is not and never will be targeted at that market. Which is why IMHO MySQL now can support transactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    Also, what happened to companies actually fostering learning and development amongst their staff (perhaps even cultivating some loyalty)? Taking people who are talented but maybe a bit raw and shaping them into 'proper developers'? Maybe it's because most managers aren't very good at that sort of thing...
    That's missing the point. Mentoring / Fostering / Developing PHP programmers to where exactly? With every other major web dev. language you can put a certifcate under your activities. Then you can measure success or lack of it. This is *exactly* the kind of thing managers should be good at.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    Letting people know that PHP is actually at the heart and center of a billion dollar operation *should* inspire some level of interest or respect from potential adopters
    Maybe, yes. But then again, most companies are not dot coms, innovating is what they do in the design rooms, not in their programmng pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    That's not peanuts, and the fact that they were bringing in outside PHP consultants and sending staff to training seemed to confirm their belief in using it long term, and that it wasn't just a 'fad' or a 'band-aid'.
    I agree and applaud, really, that is great for the Web, PHP and eventually everybody. But I would like to see these outlyers become the median.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgkimsal
    Biggest problem is WHO does the certification? PHP isn't owned by one corp.
    Well, for a certificationn to be recognized and gain rapid acceptance it must be from an accredited certifier. And who does the accreditation? As you say, nobody owns PHP, so nobody can accredit a certification or training vendor.

    You only need the whole shebang if you believe that PHP should pave the way to web domination. I don't hold that view, I believe that if Rasmus or Zend or whoever started accredition schemes, then part of the appeal of PHP would die immediately. But then I accept that PHP will be at the bottom of the web language food chain, something like PHP -> Coldfusion -> ASP -> PERL -> ASP.NET -> J2EE. (And that is soleley based on the hourly rate of programmers in those languages, not the capabilities of the language).

    So, to recap, PHP is not an enterprise technology (language). But who wants it to be one anyway? Isn't the top end of the market crowded anyway?

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    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asterix
    Spend? No, I don't think so (and being a CIO I am in a position to judge They like Big Budgets. Give me a Budget of 2M, and I utilize 1.8M, then I save the company 10%, and use that argument to prove how cool I am & can be entrusted with more money . But thats a difficult game and a different topic.
    Hrm. Generally the (admittedly few) C-level execs I've worked with would usually prefer to spend on multiple projects to see results. Not spending for spending's sake necessarily, but if you've got extra money and other worthwhile projects to address, then do it. That's the pattern I've seen and experienced, but I'm *NOT* a CIO at a large multimillion dollar corp, so take that for what it's worth.

    Thats the problem. PHP doesn't AFAIK do transactions, so arguing that some other layer (vendor) should do it is shooting yourself in the foot. There are many good reasons why databases should not manage business transactions. Ever heard of two-phase commit? There is no reason why transactions shouldn't be offered by a programming language, unless you concede that the language in question is not and never will be targeted at that market. Which is why IMHO MySQL now can support transactions.
    I don't see VBScript *as a language* can support transactions - it uses an external component to manage them. And from what I recall of Java, the language itself doesn't support transactions, but uses external components.

    That's missing the point. Mentoring / Fostering / Developing PHP programmers to where exactly?
    To the standards the organization would like them to be at or achieve.

    With every other major web dev. language you can put a certifcate under your activities. Then you can measure success or lack of it. This is *exactly* the kind of thing managers should be good at.
    But beyond checking if someone is up to date or not with certs, there's not much more you can do with that. I'm not saying they're completely useless, but a person can have all the certs in the world, but if they don't do things the way the company needs them done, or adheres to company standards or fails in other company-defined measures of achievement, he's failed.

    Maybe, yes. But then again, most companies are not dot coms, innovating is what they do in the design rooms, not in their programmng pens.
    Keeping the topic at least partially revolving around PHP, I'd say that most people using PHP are doing so in a web (read - 'dot com' or similar extension) environment. You can certainly be innovative in design and then implement that in PHP (or other languages).


    Well, for a certificationn to be recognized and gain rapid acceptance it must be from an accredited certifier. And who does the accreditation? As you say, nobody owns PHP, so nobody can accredit a certification or training vendor.
    Not saying it can't be done at all - it's about trust. Doesn't matter if New Horizons is 'sun certified' if no one trusts sun. Or ever better 'foobar certified', if no one has heard of foobar in that field.

    You only need the whole shebang if you believe that PHP should pave the way to web domination. I don't hold that view, I believe that if Rasmus or Zend or whoever started accredition schemes, then part of the appeal of PHP would die immediately. But then I accept that PHP will be at the bottom of the web language food chain, something like PHP -> Coldfusion -> ASP -> PERL -> ASP.NET -> J2EE. (And that is soleley based on the hourly rate of programmers in those languages, not the capabilities of the language).
    Hrm. I've been banned on here for talking dollars, but you're talking relative positioning. In our experience, for the above to hold true, *every* language up there would need to command US three figures per hour then, from a consulting-shop standpoint. From 'I'm an employee someplace' that might be closer to the truth, but the PHP/CF/ASP/Perl would, in my observations, be all on the same level these days.
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    Sweatje -

    Local ? As to Elgin... Nope I'm from the South / Central Belt of Scotland and proud of it... William Wallace Country;

    Freedom.... Ahem.

    Seen Braveheart with Mel Gibson no ? If you've seen this film you'll at least have a sense of what I mean by ''Freedom....'' I hope ?

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    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    I doubt PHP will gain any significant share of the "enterprise" market before it has a decent class library and (a) more standardized development process(es) i.e. PHP needs to pick a few of the 49 gazillion ways (with their accompanying frameworks) you can develop a web site with it, and make them the standard, so that it's possible to get certified and educated in PHP, and actually have it mean anything.

    After that happens, were talkin'!
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    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    What about classic ASP? Is it enterprise technology. It's supported by Microsoft, so I assume it is. Though PHP is much faster than ASP, judging by various benchmarks.
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    I doubt PHP will gain any significant share of the "enterprise" market before it has a decent class library and (a) more standardized development process(es) i.e. PHP needs to pick a few of the 49 gazillion ways (with their accompanying frameworks) you can develop a web site with it, and make them the standard, so that it's possible to get certified and educated in PHP, and actually have it mean anything.

    After that happens, were talkin'!
    And if ASP is enterprise technology, what about its lack of framework and standartirization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika
    What about classic ASP? Is it enterprise technology. It's supported by Microsoft, so I assume it is. Though PHP is much faster than ASP, judging by various benchmarks.

    And if ASP is enterprise technology, what about its lack of framework and standartirization?
    ASP isn't any better for enterprise than PHP, which is exactly why Microsoft done a total revamp and came up with ASP.NET, ASP simply didn't cut it against Java when it came to enterprise applications.


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