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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Remove from Trash

    If you selected a Private Message and then chose the option "Remove from Trash", what would you expect to happen?


    Debbie

  2. #2
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    spikeZ's Avatar
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    That it goes back into your inbox....
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

  3. #3
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    Agreed - although if you wanted to be really clear, you could change the wording to "Restore from trash".
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    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    That it goes back into your inbox....
    That is what I originally meant, but maybe a User could get confused and think that "Remove from Trash" means "Remove from Trash (and Permanently Delete this Message)"...

    Is that possible?


    Debbie

  5. #5
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    As I said, if you want to be really clear, you could say "Restore from trash".

    I would expect the message to say "Delete from trash", if that's what's going to happen.

    However, if a user clicks on "Remove from trash", expecting the message to be permanently deleted and instead it's restored, your user may be surprised, but it's no big deal. If they click on "Remove from trash", expecting the message to be restored and instead it's permanently deleted, then they might be a bit miffed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDee View Post
    Is that possible?
    Pretty much anything is possible when dealing with real people. You'll never cover every eventuality.
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  6. #6
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    I agree with the above, except I would drop the words "from Trash".

    If the user is viewing a message in the Trash, and now wants to restore it, I would simply label the option "Restore". You know you are restoring from the Trash, because you are looking at the trashed message at that point.

    Similarly, rather than "Delete from Trash", I would say "Delete permanently". I think the word "permanently" adds some value, because simply deleting a message might be synonymous (in some users' eyes) with moving it to the Trash, which they have already done.

    Just my EUR 0,02 worth.

    Mike

  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikl View Post
    I agree with the above, except I would drop the words "from Trash".

    If the user is viewing a message in the Trash, and now wants to restore it, I would simply label the option "Restore". You know you are restoring from the Trash, because you are looking at the trashed message at that point.

    Similarly, rather than "Delete from Trash", I would say "Delete permanently". I think the word "permanently" adds some value, because simply deleting a message might be synonymous (in some users' eyes) with moving it to the Trash, which they have already done.

    Just my EUR 0,02 worth.

    Mike
    If a User wants to get rid of a PM for good, then I have always had the choice "Permanently Delete", which I think is pretty clear.

    If a User wants to take a PM from the Trash and move it back to its original place (e.g. Inbox or Sent folder), then I originally had "Remove from Trash". But after looking at that, it occurred to me some people might misinterpret that?!

    To be honest, I'm thinking "Restore from Trash" and "Restore" are a little too technical for the average user...

    If you say "restore" to me, as an IT Geek I get it. But do you think your grandmother or 50 year old uncle would know what "Restore" means?!

    Anyone else care to comment?

    Sincerely,


    Debbie

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDee View Post
    But do you think your grandmother or 50 year old uncle would know what "Restore" means?!
    Would they be representative of your target audience? If so, you might be better off taking a straw poll of elderly friends/relatives, rather than asking on a "geek" forum.

    For what it's worth, I've been helping a friend of 76 master her computer. (She'd be the first to admit it's been an uphill struggle. ) She's away just now so I can't check, but I'm pretty certain that as a very-definite-non-geek, she would understand "restore" to mean "return to its former state", so "put that thing back where it came from." Offhand, I can't think what else it might be taken to mean, that might cause confusion.
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    At least all Windows users (geek or very-definite-non-geek), must be pretty common to the term "Restore", which is used for the "Recycle Bin".

    See: Restore this item (or just "Restore")

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDee View Post
    But do you think your grandmother or 50 year old uncle would know what "Restore" means?!
    Debbie, I would not consider 50 to be particularly old for a computer user these days. Remember that PCs have been around for over 30 years, and that a whole generation of people who use computers at their work are now in middle age.

    Nor would I consider "restore" to be at all geekish. Off-hand, it's the most obvious word I can think of which expresses the idea you are trying to convey.

    Mike

  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoBear View Post
    Would they be representative of your target audience? If so, you might be better off taking a straw poll of elderly friends/relatives, rather than asking on a "geek" forum.
    Grandmas... No.

    People in their 50's... Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoBear View Post
    Offhand, I can't think what else it might be taken to mean, that might cause confusion.
    When I hear the word "Restore", I instantly think of a Database "(Backup and) Restore", so that is why I feared it might be too "technical".


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikl View Post
    Debbie, I would not consider 50 to be particularly old for a computer user these days. Remember that PCs have been around for over 30 years, and that a whole generation of people who use computers at their work are now in middle age.
    True. That was an unfair blow to middle-aged people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikl View Post
    Nor would I consider "restore" to be at all geekish. Off-hand, it's the most obvious word I can think of which expresses the idea you are trying to convey.

    Mike
    Maybe, but like I said above, when I hear "Restore" I think of Database Restores... And that is a concept only a geek would know.

    Just my first impression...

    Sincerely,


    Debbie

  12. #12
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    You can always make a tooltip (!): "Bring this item back to where it came from before it was put into Trash."

    The geeks know that then your Database will get a (small) "Restore".
    The others, 50- and 50+, just see it coming back into their INbox (or whatever location it came from).

  13. #13
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Rather than hope that something will be understood, why not just be more specific? E.g.

    Move this message back to Inbox
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    Rather than hope that something will be understood, why not just be more specific? E.g.
    Because we are talking about the Trash Folder view where a User checks those PM's he/she wants to take action on, and then chooses an action from a drop-down menu.

    So while your verbiage is more explicit, it also won't fit!!

    Also, in the Trash Folder you may be "restoring" both "Deleted Incoming PMs" and "Deleted Sent PMs", so I need *neutral* wording...


    -----
    Right now in my Trash Folder view, my drop-down has the choices:
    Code:
    - Restore
    - Permanently Delete

    I guess that is pretty clear, but who knows?!

    Follow me, Ralph? (Or do I need to "Delete" you!!)

    Sincerely,


    Debbie

  15. #15
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    You can always shorten things, though. This would work:

    Move PM to Inbox
    If there isn't room for that, then change the design.
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    You can always shorten things, though. This would work:

    Move PM to Inbox
    So, Ralph, your response sounds like a "Thumbs Down" vote for "Restore"?


    Debbie

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDee View Post
    So, Ralph, your response sounds like a "Thumbs Down" vote for "Restore"?
    At first I thought it was fine, but the discussion made me think twice. Given that it could confuse some, I figure there's no point taking the risk that it might be misunderstood if something clearer can be used. That said, I'd class it as a minor issue.
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    At first I thought it was fine, but the discussion made me think twice. Given that it could confuse some, I figure there's no point taking the risk that it might be misunderstood if something clearer can be used. That said, I'd class it as a minor issue.
    Interesting.

    See, it is the opposite for me.

    At first I liked "Remove from Trash" better than "Restore".

    But after kicking things around, if I was a User looking in my Trash Folder, and I had these two Actions that I could take on PM's in my Trash Folder...
    Code:
    - Restore
    - Permanently Delete
    ...I think that the *context* of being in the Trash Folder makes it very clear what is going on.


    But we can certainly agree that everyone see - and interprets - things slightly differently!

    Sincerely,


    Debbie

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    "Move PM to Inbox "
    If there isn't room for that, then change the design.
    If there is "Move PM to Inbox " as well as the possibility "Move PM to SENDbox", it will not work this way. Then you have to use a general term as "Restore".

    • If you say both "Move PM to Inbox " and "Move PM to SENDbox" in a drop down, you have the risk that a visitor can put a Send message back to the INbox instead of to where is came from, or an old incoming PM back to the SENDbox (and maybe cannot find it back on the right place & think (s)he has deleted the thing).

    But the phenomenon "drop down" is new for me. I assumed it would be some Icon (preoccupation? how should it come? ).
    Then my suggestion of an explaining tooltip is out of order! *)

    I think if a visitor finds in the Trash map a drop down with:
    "Restore PM to old location"
    "Delete PM permanently"
    there will not be much confusion, and hardly opportunity for errors.
    ___________
    *) Unless you put a hoverable question mark (or Q-icon) just beside the dropdown.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    To Ralph's point, I could maybe use this...
    Code:
    Restore to Inbox/Sent
    Permanently Delete

    Can't please everyone, but at least you guys have given me some good ideas.

    Thanks!


    Debbie

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDee View Post
    When I hear the word "Restore", I instantly think of a Database "(Backup and) Restore", so that is why I feared it might be too "technical".

    Maybe, but like I said above, when I hear "Restore" I think of Database Restores... And that is a concept only a geek would know.
    I think you answered your own question - if a concept (Database Restores) is something only a geek would know, it's not going to be too technical to just use restore.

    Or you could use the old standby - undelete - which has been used enough over the years and common enough in the lexicon to make most dictionaries.
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  22. #22
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    Or you could use the old standby - undelete - which has been used enough over the years and common enough in the lexicon to make most dictionaries.
    Good point.
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  23. #23
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    Pedaling on my bike this afternoon, I got a fresh idea: after a visitor has hit the Submit button (or the thing in the dropdown), you can give feedback with a (php) confirm message as intermediate:
    "This PM will be deleted permanently. [OK][Cancel]"
    "This PM will be removed from Trash and brought back to your INbox. [OK][Cancel]"
    "This PM will be removed from Trash and brought back to your SENTbox. [OK][Cancel]"
    (or without the "removed from Trash")

  24. #24
    SitePoint Wizard DoubleDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francky View Post
    Pedaling on my bike this afternoon, I got a fresh idea: after a visitor has hit the Submit button (or the thing in the dropdown), you can give feedback with a (php) confirm message as intermediate:
    "This PM will be deleted permanently. [OK][Cancel]"
    "This PM will be removed from Trash and brought back to your INbox. [OK][Cancel]"
    "This PM will be removed from Trash and brought back to your SENTbox. [OK][Cancel]"
    (or without the "removed from Trash")
    Great idea (again), Francky.

    Unfortunately popping up a confirmation message like that would require me to figure out how to re-tool my script so I get that extra layer while making sure control doesn't leave my single script, and that is more work than I have time for right now.

    (All of my scripts submit back to themselves so both Displaying and Processing are done in one place, which is very important for security. I have wondered how to incorporate a final "Here is your last chance.." type messages, but that is way out of scope for my MEGA LATE website!!! Definitely something I want to learn how to do for v3.0, though!)

    So, in the mean time, either you are smart enough to understand what the choices mean - and you don't make a mistake - or in cases like "Permanently Delete (Message)", you are screwed if you make a mistake because there is no "undo" button!!!

    Life can be tough!!!

    Thanks,


    Debbie

  25. #25
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    Mikl's Avatar
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    I have wondered how to incorporate a final "Here is your last chance.." type messages, but that is way out of scope for my MEGA LATE website!!! Definitely something I want to learn how to do for v3.0, though!)
    That sort of comfirmation message is useful in the case of permanently deleting the message. But is it really necessary for moving messages from one folder to another? After all, that action is not destructive in any way, and can easily be reversed.

    On the other hand, you are definitely correct that it is something you should learn how to do. There are many other situations where a confirmation of some kind is desirable.

    Mike


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