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  1. #76
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    ok, just to pour some more napalm on the fire, i still stand by my earlier declaration that <pre> does not carry any semantic meaning. otherwise, you may as well state that a hypothetical <red> tag would carry semantic meaning. as with <pre> now, it deals with presentation rather than describing what the purpouse of the content within the tags is and how it sits within the structure of the document...
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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  2. #77
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Using anything that has width and you risk people scrolling horizontally.

    As for not having any semantic meaning - i dunno, it probably doesn't. But then again I still have trouble understanding the semantic meaning of the <hr /> which people claim is for divisions (but then what is the <div> for?), or why the various header tags aren't just <h> with an attribute to put your 1-6+ (is there really a semantic reason why they need to be separate tags?).

    About the only use I've ever had for <pre> has been for ascii art. In that case it does feel (at least to me) to have a bit more semantic sense to use <pre> ("Hi, I'm preformatted text!") than a <div> or anything else.

    Come on, how often are you using <span> just to apply your css instead of using it to make a logical inline division? Almost every case of it I see may as well be a font tag.

  3. #78
    Forensic SEO Consultant Webnauts's Avatar
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    To <hr /> I would suggest that you to read here:

    http://weblog.delacour.net/archives/000589.html

  4. #79
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Thanks for the link. As far as I can gather from it <hr /> is only good for splitting up a "before & after" scenario. I'm reading the book by Joe Clark right now and that's about all he's had to say on it.

    It's funny that the people offering up that "accessibility tip of the day" can't even give an explanation for it.

  5. #80
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    ...as with <pre> now, it deals with presentation rather than describing what the purpouse of the content within the tags is ...
    Agree
    I.e. <code> is better than <pre>?
    (If the content is some example code, of course)

  6. #81
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    ASCII art, tab-delimited files, just a few of the things that the "preformatting" is semnatic for.

    Wayne: The idea of the <hn> tags being deprecated for being presentational is ludicrous. Go find a writer who's never touched HTML and ask them if headings are presentational.
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  7. #82
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    sorry, but you can't mention "semantic" and "ASCII art" in the same sentence

    what's the ASCII art representing ? if, for instance, it's a header, it should be marked up as such, with CSS dealing with the fact that it's preformatted
    Code:
    h1 {
        white-space: pre;
    }
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  8. #83
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Tab delimited files should be either attached through a link or in a table in HTML so they are accessible.

    There are better ways of showing ascii art as Redux pointed out.

    It's only real purpose is showing blocks of computer code as it is the only thing that needs to be in a monospace preformatted presentation.. As such it doesn't designate what it does.

    <h1> - <h6> should be replaced with a <header> tag if you feel it is needed and style should be controlled by CSS just like all other elements. In a time before CSS they were useful. However now they are no and should be deprecated like all the other stylistic tags.
    Wayne Luke
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  9. #84
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    I fail to see what's not semantic about <h1> - <h6>.

    I understand them to mean most important - least important header.

    On a practical point, 'whitespace: pre' doesn't work on IE5.X. Just thougth I'd mention it.

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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    <h1> - <h6> should be replaced with a <header> tag if you feel it is needed and style should be controlled by CSS just like all other elements. In a time before CSS they were useful. However now they are no and should be deprecated like all the other stylistic tags.
    I disagree. I do not consider them stylistic tags, as you put it. I consider them to be more important to the structure of the document, as documents often have headings, sub-headings, et cetera. In fact, those unaware of CSS won't use those tags and instead use DIV or FONT for their headings which gives the document less structure than if the designer were to use the heading tags.

    For this reason, the different tags should be kept because they represent part of the structure of the document. If it were up to the designer to designate classes to header tags, there would not be such structure.

    I actually like the header tags as they are very helpful to organize the structure of the document, and with CSS they can look however you want them to. Also, every h1 will look the same and so on because of the way you can declare style in the document header or in an external stylesheet.
    http://www.statgfx.com

  11. #86
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Luke
    <h1> - <h6> should be replaced with a <header> tag...
    Interesting (not only because I was thinking of something similar...)
    Only problem is; how to define css styles for e.g. "<h2>", i.e. a <header> that appears in some container after a "top level" <header> ?

  12. #87
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Interesting (not only because I was thinking of something similar...)
    Only problem is; how to define css styles for e.g. "<h2>", i.e. a <header> that appears in some container after a "top level" <header> ?
    XHTML 2.0 is acutally replacing <h1>=<h6> with simply <h>. My guess is that you'll have to use inheritance or different ids/classes in order to obtain your desired style, or some creative CSS2 selectors (I can't think of any off the top of my head though, except for the <element> + <element> syntax that can get sibling elements).

  13. #88
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    However, there's still that problem that an <h> following another <h> isn't necessarily one level below the previous
    I guess you will need the "containers" I mentioned above:
    Code:
    <h>Section 1</h>
    <div id="section1">
      <h>Section 1.1</h>
      <div id="section11">
        <h>Section 1.1.1</h>
        <div id="section11">
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>
    <h>Section 2</h>
    <div id="section2">
    
    </div>

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia
    XHTML 2.0 is acutally replacing <h1>=<h6> with simply <h>. My guess is that you'll have to use inheritance or different ids/classes in order to obtain your desired style, or some creative CSS2 selectors (I can't think of any off the top of my head though, except for the <element> + <element> syntax that can get sibling elements).
    Deprecate h1-6?
    There was a suggestion that h1 - h6 be deprecated. The working group has not yet addressed this suggestion.
    Source

    h1-h6 are still listed on that page, so they haven't been definitely deprecated yet. I don't think they should be either.
    http://www.statgfx.com

  15. #90
    SitePoint Evangelist ucahg's Avatar
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    <heading level="n" />
    or
    <h level="n" />
    or something along those lines would be nice

  16. #91
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    what's the ASCII art representing ?
    Nothing, it's just ascii art. Not a header, not anything important, just ascii art.

  17. #92
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucahg
    <heading level="n" />
    or
    <h level="n" />
    or something along those lines would be nice
    No, it would not
    Why? Because then you have to manually update all header elements when you move a block from one level to another
    Just like you have to do today, if you move, for example, a <h2> from being sibling to another <h2> to being "child" of that <h2>, i.e. you change the <h2> to a <h3>

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Code:
    <h>Section 1</h>
    <div id="section1">
      <h>Section 1.1</h>
      <div id="section11">
        <h>Section 1.1.1</h>
        <div id="section11">
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>
    <h>Section 2</h>
    <div id="section2">
    
    </div>
    I hate to be picky, but I just noticed a small error in this code.
    http://www.statgfx.com

  19. #94
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Yep, noticed that too, but was too lazy to edit

  20. #95
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_C
    Nothing, it's just ascii art. Not a header, not anything important, just ascii art.
    i'd say that's a sweeping generalisation. it may represent the logo of your wonderful site, and act as the top heading...

    btw, i hate ASCII art, and can't believe this props up in a discussion on semantics. i'd say if it's purely decorational art, it should be wrapped up with something akin to the <object> tag...if that worked
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  21. #96
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    i'd say that's a sweeping generalisation. it may represent the logo of your wonderful site, and act as the top heading...
    I'd say you are letting your disdain for ASCII art cloud your judgement. What if it's a fan-site for ASCII art, and there's an ASCII art gallery? Surely gallery pieces, whether real images or not, aren't going to be a logo or header.
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  22. #97
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    i'd say that's a sweeping generalisation. it may represent the logo of your wonderful site, and act as the top heading...
    That's because it was a sweeping generalisation. It may have represented something that could've been marked up otherwise, but for the most part it was just ascii art.

    btw, i hate ASCII art, and can't believe this props up in a discussion on semantics.
    It's amazing what the real world can throw out as examples.

    i'd say if it's purely decorational art, it should be wrapped up with something akin to the <object> tag...if that worked
    Honestly I think <img> would have more semantic meaning, but that doesn't work either

  23. #98
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Off Topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    btw, i hate ASCII art
    How can you hate ASCII art?

  24. #99
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_C
    Pretty cool

  25. #100
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_C
    It's amazing what the real world can throw out as examples.
    Off Topic:

    ascii art is a "perversion" (something used for something other than its original purpouse). yes, the real world also has people using screwdrivers to bang nails into walls...
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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