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  1. #101
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    Off Topic:

    ascii art is a "perversion"
    Man, what happened to you? Did ascii art pour sugar in your gas-tank or something?

  2. #102
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    Off Topic:

    ascii art is a "perversion" (something used for something other than its original purpouse).
    I suppose then making art and sculpture from aluminum cans or industrial steel or just regular junk is a 'perversion' too [img]images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

    A word does come to my mind when I see these things, including ASCII art, and that word isn't peversion, it's creativity.
    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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  3. #103
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle
    I suppose then making art and sculpture from aluminum cans or industrial steel or just regular junk is a 'perversion' too [img]images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

    A word does come to my mind when I see these things, including ASCII art, and that word isn't peversion, it's creativity.
    But even with that there's a fine line isn't there? Tables are supposed to be used for tabular data only; is a layout table a perversion, or simply creative?

  4. #104
    Web-coding NINJA! silver trophy beetle's Avatar
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    Yes, vgarcia, but we are talking about using text to create art. Art can be anything, which is why an object's original purpose is irrelevant.

    See the difference?
    beetle a.k.a. Peter Bailey
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  5. #105
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    ok, are we talking about art or about standards-based code (looks at thread title again, just to make sure) ? because if we're talking art, this discussion could probably go on forever, as any bad, inappropriate or otherwise wrong use of tags can be justified as art. heck, IE only proprietary extensions to html and css can be called art as well...
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  6. #106
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle
    Yes, vgarcia, but we are talking about using text to create art. Art can be anything, which is why an object's original purpose is irrelevant.

    See the difference?
    no difference, because following that reasoning, using a table to create an artistic layout is just as valid.
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  7. #107
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle
    I suppose then making art and sculpture from aluminum cans or industrial steel or just regular junk is a 'perversion' too [img]images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
    no need to roll your eyes, because the answer is yes
    and for those not in the know (and i thought i would have made it clear by adding my ad-hoc definition in brackets), "perversion" does not just carry negative sexual connotations...
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perversion
    diverting from the true intent or object; [...] a turning or applying to a wrong end or use
    and by that definition any "non standard" use of tags (e.g. using structural tags to achieve a visual effect) is a perversion.
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  8. #108
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    ok, are we talking about art or about standards-based code (looks at thread title again, just to make sure) ? because if we're talking art, this discussion could probably go on forever, as any bad, inappropriate or otherwise wrong use of tags can be justified as art.
    You're confusing content and markup. The tangent we went off on was marking up ascii art with <pre>, not that <pre> was art.

  9. #109
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    Considering all of the above, this thread is art.

    Let's sell it to the MoMA.

    Rik
    English tea - Italian coffee - Maltese wine - Belgian beer - French Cognac

  10. #110
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    ok, are we talking about art or about standards-based code (looks at thread title again, just to make sure) ?
    Does the standards-based code live in a vacuum? Are we only allowed to use it to mark up pedantic opinions about standards-based code?

    Whether ASCII art is "art" or not (I'd call it more of a craft, personally), it exists, it exists on the web, and as a consequence of that, it has to be marked-up by something or other. There is no <ascii-art> element, thus the <pre> element, with its connotation of "the text inside me has significant white space" is a good choice, IMHO. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but <p> is used in much the same way (is everything marked up with <p> really a paragraph? What's a paragraph anyway, but typographic convention, doesn'n't that make it presentational?) Not to mention, of course, <div> and <span>.
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  11. #111
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anode
    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but <p> is used in much the same way (is everything marked up with <p> really a paragraph?
    well, that's a perversion of the tag as well then.

    What's a paragraph anyway, but typographic convention, doesn'n't that make it presentational?) Not to mention, of course, <div> and <span>.
    in a structural sense, paragraph denotes a "chunk" of text -although the W3C are now extending it to mean
    XHTML2's paragraphs represent the conceptual idea of a paragraph, and so may contain lists, blockquotes, pre's and tables as well as inline text
    .

    true, convention has it that paragraphs begin on new lines, and usually indented. heck, the "graph" part of the word indicates that there is a visual, graphic element to it. so true, paragraphs as such have presentational connotations. divs and spans, however, do not, imho...as there is no "burden" of visual convention for them.

    oh, as for ascii art, this struck me as interesting
    Also note that there is no normative requirement that the <pre> element be rendered in a monospace font (although this is the default rendering), nor that text wrapping be disabled.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-block-text.html#sec_8.8.
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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  12. #112
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    oh, as for ascii art, this struck me as interesting

    http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-block-text.html#sec_8.8.
    Good thing that's in XHTML2 which will meet about as much success as VRML
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  13. #113
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    New element needed:
    <perversions>

  14. #114
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Off Topic:


    New element needed:
    <perversions>
    possibly

  15. #115
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofa
    Off Topic:


    New element needed:
    <perversions>
    Off Topic:

    to go with a new doctype
    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE artml PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD ArtML 1.0 Strictly Art//EN"
    	   "http://www.asciiart.com/artml-strictlu_art.dtd">
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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  16. #116
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    Off Topic:

    to go with a new doctype
    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE artml PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD ArtML 1.0 Strictly Art//EN"
    	   "http://www.asciiart.com/artml-strictlu_art.dtd">
    Off Topic:


    Will there be a transitional doctype as well, for those of us that wish to use smilies for layout?

  17. #117
    Ceci n'est pas Zoef Zoef's Avatar
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    Off Topic:


    Don't forget to add the correct meta information:
    Code:
    <meta name="pervert" value="Rik" />
    English tea - Italian coffee - Maltese wine - Belgian beer - French Cognac

  18. #118
    SitePoint Zealot Maher's Avatar
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    Lightbulb tabindex

    Well..

    Imagine that you are creating a web form which is lengthy and designed in a special way... and you want the user to logically jump from one input field to another in the way you want, what can you do in order to control his "Tab" clicks?

    Here comes the real benifit of the input tag's property "tabindex"!

    It's similar to the VB form control.. when using it, you will have a 100% control over the tab clicks.. and the user will go to the next field you desire!

    For Example:

    ---------------------

    <form action="">
    <p>
    <label>User Name
    <input type="text" name="textfield2" tabindex="1">
    </label>
    </p>
    <p>
    <label>Email
    <input type="text" name="textfield" tabindex="2">
    </label>
    </p>
    <p>
    <label>Submit
    <input type="submit" name="Submit" value="Submit" tabindex="3">
    </label>
    </p>
    </form>

    ---------------------

    Most of the web designers/developers doesn't use this property.. try it!

  19. #119
    Santos L Halper Zenith's Avatar
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    No one has mentioned <nobr> ? Or is it so common?

    Lifesaver anyway when you must force text & images & whatever in one line and you don't have to do this:

    there&nbsp;is&nbsp;no&nbsp;line&nbsp;break

    -->
    <nobr>ther is no line break</nobr>

    -Z-

  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Great thread

    I am pleased to report that having read from start to finish the only tag I was unaware of/have never used was Redux's "<q>". Shame it's buggy 'cos I'd have loads of uses for it otherwise - why is is buggy exactly?
    ~The Artist Latterly Known as Crazy Hamster~
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  21. #121
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    i think it's because nobr is deprecated in favour of using CSS' "white-space: nowrap;"
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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  22. #122
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOriginalH
    why is is buggy exactly?
    coz it don't work...
    IE throws a monkey in the works... http://diveintomark.org/archives/200...the_q_tag.html
    redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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  23. #123
    Sultan of Ping jofa's Avatar
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    Yep, tabindex is a nice attribute

    Example of bad, and very common, tabbing order in a form:
    name > password > "forgot password?" > submit
    User enters name, tab, enters password, tab, and finally press Enter...


    <nobr> ?
    ...element "NOBR" undefined...

  24. #124
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOriginalH
    Great thread

    I am pleased to report that having read from start to finish the only tag I was unaware of/have never used was Redux's "<q>". Shame it's buggy 'cos I'd have loads of uses for it otherwise - why is is buggy exactly?
    I think it is buggy because Microsoft doesn't support it properly.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  25. #125
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    <nobr> was never part of any HTML standard, but IE and Netscape supported it, hence its wide use. The white-space property in CSS is much better suited to the task IMO.


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