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  1. #26
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Sorry I wasn't clear about that... The Ottawa law includes private establishments as well - bars, restaurants. For a while at the start private clubs of certain types were able to have smoking... but then suddenly every bar in the area became a "private club", so they had to generalize it.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
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  2. #27
    Fine Tuned silver trophy KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    Outside public places is still public. The sidewalk is a public place, streets are public places, parks are public places.
    aspen, I agree with everything you said with the exception of banning in public places as quoted above. Do people smoking in a park or on a public sidewalk really bother you that much? Just curious, do you also suffer from allergies?

    Off Topic:


    I have a hard time carrying on a forum discussion with your avi staring at me like that. It intimidates the heck out of me. It reminds me of the little girl in The Ring. I think any minute, your going to jump out of my monitor and grab me by the neck.

  3. #28
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    I think the real question is where does it stop. You shouldn't smoke, drink alcohol, eat meat, eat sugary foods, eat fatty foods, drink caffine ..... these are all health issues, if you do one surely you have to do the others and then where would we be?

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    Smoking affects other people (and it costs the government money in eventual medical expenses... but thats besides the point).
    Money that is made back by having such massively high tax rates on tobacco products.

    Personally, I don't see why I should have to cycle to work amongst all the carcinogenic pollutants pumped out by cars, lorries, and buses. Sure, run your car in the confines of your own garage, but not on my public roads.

    Now, yes, that's an extreme view. But I don't see why it's not exactly the same as me being told I can't have a cigarette in public.

    I have no problem at all with someone wanting to open a non-smoking bar, or to have to go into a designated smoking area in an airport. But a blanket ban is absurd IMHO.

    Matt.

    /steps off fence...

  5. #30
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KitKat
    I think the real question is where does it stop. You shouldn't smoke, drink alcohol, eat meat, eat sugary foods, eat fatty foods, drink caffine ..... these are all health issues, if you do one surely you have to do the others and then where would we be?

    Second-hand smoke hurts people around you because it pollutes the air - there are non-smoking restaurant employees with cancer because of the smoke from customers.

    Drinking hurts the people around you. Drunk people do stupid and often illegal things. Sometimes they become violent. Sometimes they kill people by driving while intoxicated. So it's regulated.

    Eating sugary and fatty foods, or drinking caffine may have health implications on yourself, but that's a choice, and it doesn't hurt anyone. Just like smoking in the privacy of your own home, which few are suggesting should be banned... it hurts nobody but yourself.



    (Why is eating meat there? The human body is supposed to eat a certain amount of meat for protien.)
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mincer
    or to have to go into a designated smoking area in an airport. But a blanket ban is absurd IMHO.
    They don't even allow that-if you are a smoker and have to be at the airport. You are not allowed to smoke ANYWHERE in the airport. You have to go out side...ok understand that. BUT, you also will have to go out and come back through security. Now I am not sure how many of you have flown out of the SeaTac airport....but, you can't just cruise through security. Recently they had wait times of up to three hours! I certianly would not want to be stuck on a plane or in a terminal for hours with someone who is severly suffering from withdrawls because they can't have a smoke. (remember, it is an addiction) They could at least stick them in a room that is closed off from everything else so that they could smoke and not be so dawgonne grumpy!!!!

  7. #32
    SitePoint Addict richard_h's Avatar
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    Money that is made back by having such massively high tax rates on tobacco products.
    The tax still doesn't cover the massive burden put on the NHS through smoking related disease.

    If the government are really serious about cutting smoking related deaths then banning smoking from public places makes perfect sense. I gave up smoking 9 months ago but still find it hard when I go out clubbing or to the local pub - all these venues are filled with smoke and when you're having a beer it's difficult not to be tempted. Nearly all my friends smoke and they all say the same thing – the only time they really need to smoke is when they’re out drinking. I strongly believe if smoking wasn’t permitted in pubs/ bars over 50% of the people I know would quit.

  8. #33
    Drop em if you got em
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatnewt
    Second-hand smoke hurts people around you because it pollutes the air - there are non-smoking restaurant employees with cancer because of the smoke from customers.
    I don't think there's ever been one single case where someone had cancer related to second-hand smoke. I'm not a bigtime skeptic, but stuff about second-hand smoke and illness has no foundation. I won't deny it is smelly and annoying (especially while eating) and I used to hate waking up with the smell on me from a night out, but a gov't ban?

    I'm not a smoker, but I think a public ban is just ridiculous. Especially bars. Give the owner the option. If he wants to allow smoking for his patrons, he should be able to. If someone doesn't like it, they'll go to a non-smoking establishment.

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard Rick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by advantagecom
    They don't even allow that-if you are a smoker and have to be at the airport. You are not allowed to smoke ANYWHERE in the airport.
    All (well all the ones I have been to) the airports in Britain have either smoking areas or smoking rooms where people may smoke. At Manchester Airport there is normally an annoucement every three or four seconds saying that smoking is only permitted in cleary designated areas!

    There are two of those at college, smoking rooms, and the atmosphere in there is enough to make anyone want to quit - your lucky if you can see 3 feet in front of you through the smog
    Rick

  10. #35
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    I don't think there's ever been one single case where someone had cancer related to second-hand smoke. I'm not a bigtime skeptic, but stuff about second-hand smoke and illness has no foundation.
    Think about that. The smoke in the air (second-hand) is the same stuff that goes into the smoker.

    There is no known safe level of exposure to second-hand smoke and it causes at least 1000 deaths every year in Canada

    If you are a non-smoker, exposure to SHS increases your risk of getting either lung cancer or heart disease by 20%.
    According to Health Canada (and every other source I've seen on the matter)... there's lots of foundation. Look at this section of Health Canada's site, specifically.

    Second-hand smoke can cause sore throats, croup, asthma, bronchitis, middle ear infections, reduced lung function, pneumonia, heart disease, leukemia and other cancers.

    ...

    For youth ages 13-18, exposure to second-hand smoke can result in: increased prevalence and exacerbation of asthma, respiratory problems, middle ear infections in younger children (0-4), increased risk of cardiovascular problems (reduced oxygen transport, increased HDL cholesterol) and small increased risk of cancer.

    Want more?

    The US National Cancer Institute says:

    Scientists estimate that ETS [Environmental tobacco smoke or second-hand smoke] is responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths per year among nonsmokers in the United States.
    Also check out http://www.lungusa.org/ and http://www.lung.ca/ if you still don't believe that second-hand smoke poses a risk for non-smokers.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
    Web Analyst at Napkyn


  11. #36
    Drop em if you got em
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    Just because someone has lung cancer does not mean it came from smoking.

    Also, second-hand smoke is far, far less potent then what the smoker is taking in. Not only that, a nonsmoker is most likely not around it as much as a smoker would be anyway. I've smoked a cigarette, and I've stood in a smokey room. They are far from the same thing.

    I don't really care for #'s from websites without knowing how they were gathered. Here's where I am cynical: everyone's got numbers supporting their argument. I will read studies, and I do form my opinions, and mine's already formed on this.

    If you want to see something on the flip-side, try and check out a show called "Penn & Teller: Bullsh*t". I'm not putting faith into that show like it's gospel, but they did a show about second-hand smoke and how a lot of the information out there is... well, I'm sure you can guess by the title of the show. As I said - my opinion's not based on this, but I have some of their skepticism and rightfully so.
    http://www.sho.com/ptbs/topics.cfm?topic=shs

    Anyway, I don't mean to argue about second-hand smoke now, so I'll leave what I have to say about that here, but I do still think it's silly for the government to command private business about things like this. Next thing you know I won't be able to get a twinkie at the bodegas because it's not good for me.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    You can't really "stop" smoking one way or ther other. Cause if you go strictly by the books, you could sue someone who smokes in an illegal area that you are then exposed to for just about any related illness you develop and the expenses you incur from them.

    I think people should accept the fact that 2nd hand smoke has already taken a couple years off your life, with or without your permission.

    Some people don't like having their life expectancy decreased like that, but the way I see it, that's less time I'm alive and senile at the same time plus the fact that you can never eliminate people who are the "weakest link". Ie, when you're driving, you can be the best driver in the world, but you're safety is only as secure as the worst driver you encounter.

  13. #38
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    Well think about it this way: If it wasn't for all us smoker's killing ourself's the taxes - as if they're not high enough - in the UK would go through the roof. But I'm not ignorant of other's so I suppose there is a point in the debate but let's not go too far with a ban if any I think ? IMO it's all Political Correctness going way too far... What next huh ?

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard davidjmedlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    I don't think there's ever been one single case where someone had cancer related to second-hand smoke. I'm not a bigtime skeptic, but stuff about second-hand smoke and illness has no foundation. I won't deny it is smelly and annoying (especially while eating) and I used to hate waking up with the smell on me from a night out, but a gov't ban?

    I'm not a smoker, but I think a public ban is just ridiculous. Especially bars. Give the owner the option. If he wants to allow smoking for his patrons, he should be able to. If someone doesn't like it, they'll go to a non-smoking establishment.
    Well, maybe I haven't gotten cancer from second hand smoke, but I can tell you for sure that it bothers me to the point of nausia to be around anyone who smokes. My chest and throat start to feel really tight and I have to gasp for air... I wish TN would ban smoking in public places for sure.

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    In Florida, they've enacted the no smoking ban, but are lenient in a couple cases. You're still allowed to set Oprah Winfrey, Jehovah Witnesses and Girl Scouts on fire; and that second-hand smoke is perfectly legal.

    $4 for a box of cookies? And the freakin 2/$1 cookies taste 10x better! BURN Troop #666! BURN!

  16. #41
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone
    In Florida, they've enacted the no smoking ban, but are lenient in a couple cases.
    Yeah, if you make something like less than 20% of your revenue from food, then you can allow smoking. This allows places like nightclubs and pool halls to have a smoking option.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
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    Funny though, most clubs would seemingly make more money off food and beverages since 2 beers equals the dag nab cover charge....

  18. #43
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone
    Funny though, most clubs would seemingly make more money off food and beverages since 2 beers equals the dag nab cover charge....
    Most nightclubs don't sell food though. At best, you may get a lemon or orange slice in your drink.

  19. #44
    I am obstructing justice. bronze trophy fatnewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    Just because someone has lung cancer does not mean it came from smoking.
    Actually, by looking at the lungs, it's pretty easy to tell that the cancer was a result of smoke, or second-hand smoke.



    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    Also, second-hand smoke is far, far less potent then what the smoker is taking in. Not only that, a nonsmoker is most likely not around it as much as a smoker would be anyway. I've smoked a cigarette, and I've stood in a smokey room. They are far from the same thing.
    It depends. A nonsmoker who works in a restaurant with smoking is exposed to it constantly throughout the day. Mabye not as much as a smoker, but still. Non-smokers have made the choice NOT to smoke.

    It might feel different to smoke than to stand in a smokey room but there are two flaws with your argument:

    - that doesn't mean at all that you're not inhaling toxins... you're just implying that it's not as much. We're dealing with poision, here. A little hurts, too. (But this isn't a little.)
    - Are you going to tell me that you actually measured the amount of toxins going into you in this smoky room? It's not necessarily the same as how it feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Health Canada
    There is no known safe level of second-hand smoke. A non-smoker in a smoky room is inhaling the same chemicals as the smoker. Second-hand smoke contains more than 4,000 chemicals, including 50 known carcinogens such as arsenic, benzene, lead, formaldehyde, carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide and hydrogen cyanide.


    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    I don't really care for #'s from websites without knowing how they were gathered. Here's where I am cynical: everyone's got numbers supporting their argument.
    That's fine if you won't accept the numbers from these sources... but remember that those that i've brought up include Health Canada, The National Cancer Institute, The American Lung Association and The Canadian Lung Association. These are non-profit organizations, and they do a large amount of scientific research to gather these numbers.

    You don't pull a number like "1000 deaths anually in Canada from second-hand smoke" out of nowhere. Even if the number is half what Health Canada, a respectable source IMO, claims, it's worth attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    Quote Originally Posted by sho.com
    We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States
    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    I do still think it's silly for the government to command private business about things like this. Next thing you know I won't be able to get a twinkie at the bodegas because it's not good for me.
    That's not the point! The point is not to help the smokers, it's for the non smokers who are affected. I wish people would stop referencing foods that are bad for you, and stuff like that. If you smoke, that's your choice. You know it might kill you... but you do it willingly. fine. The issue here is that those of us who do not smoke don't want to worry about developing cancer or other SHS diseases when we go out to eat!

    There are proved cases of SHS causing disease. The governments that are putting these bans in place are preventing health issues.

    Should private establishments be free to allow known toxins to fill their air? There are already many laws that control the acts of these businesses for the protection of their consumers. To avoid food poisioning, for example. That's the spirit of these laws.
    Colin Temple [twitter: @cailean]
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard davidjmedlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone
    You're still allowed to set ... Jehovah Witnesses ... on fire; and that second-hand smoke is perfectly legal.
    I take offense to that...

  21. #46
    SitePoint Member ian_28's Avatar
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    yes i'm all up for this ban smoking in public places it's the best idea yet, it gets on your tits when people smoke in ya face when you are not a smoker yourself.

  22. #47
    Fine Tuned silver trophy KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodkaFish
    I don't think there's ever been one single case where someone had cancer related to second-hand smoke. I'm not a bigtime skeptic, but stuff about second-hand smoke and illness has no foundation. I won't deny it is smelly and annoying (especially while eating) and I used to hate waking up with the smell on me from a night out, but a gov't ban?

    I'm not a smoker, but I think a public ban is just ridiculous. Especially bars. Give the owner the option. If he wants to allow smoking for his patrons, he should be able to. If someone doesn't like it, they'll go to a non-smoking establishment.
    Well said.

    There is absolutely no proof that second-hand smoke causes cancer. If this were true, then at least one of my friends, family, or associates would have cancer caused from second-hand smoke. I'm more willing to believe people are allergic to smoke and have serious side effects from inhaling it, but getting cancer from it? That's what they want you to believe.

    Does anyone here know of anyone who has cancer from second-hand smoke or has died from it?

  23. #48
    SitePoint Wizard Defender1's Avatar
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    Here in mass, boston banned smoking in any/all resturants and bars. I wish it was a state-wide ban.

    I'm hyper-alergic to cigarette smoke. Just a few tiny wiffs and I cough like mad. More exposure leads to asthmatic symptoms. So needless to say smoke-free resturants are among my faves.

    Also there's the issue of people who are driving/walking and just toss smoking, live butts wherever they're at. I CANNOT STAND that. Not only does it leave that area stinking and people having to smell the smoke ever after the persons done smoking it, but when you're driving and someone tosses it, it can easily land in wooded area and catch fire.

    And the whole "big-brother" pov is pretty wack IMO.
    Issues where the public concern is of issue, they should and do have the power to act.
    Defender's Designs
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  24. #49
    Super Ninja Monkey Travis's Avatar
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    Yeah, around here smoking isn't allowed in public buildings (City Hall, etc.) or around them except in designated smoking areas. I can understand that because people have to go there from time to time. However, if you don't like smoking, you can choose to stay out of a certain bar or restaurant. Also, I had heard of a device that the cigarette fit into that filtered out the smoke coming off of it. That wouldn't help for the smoke people breathed out, but thats been filtered twice anyway.

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  25. #50
    SitePoint Addict naveed's Avatar
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    Like others here, I cough like crazy around smokers. It's nice to go eat a meal without being forced to inhale toxic crap.

    I have bad health habits myself (I love junk food and fast food), but when I order a burger, I'm only harming myself. I'm not forcing grease down other people's throat.


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