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  1. #26
    SitePoint Enthusiast abdussamad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post

    Python has been around for years, a fair bit longer than Java.
    Thank you. I always thought Python was newer than PHP. I looked it up and it is much older!

    For the record, Python isn't as powerful as PHP.
    I've been into PHP for a few years but recently got interested in python. It seems to be more powerful than PHP so I am surprised by this statement.

    IMO Python would be easier for newbies and also teaches them some good habits like code indentation. But of course PHP skills are more lucrative.

    An example of a python desktop app is the bitcoin client electrum. It's very nice.

  2. #27
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    Ok, I never did any programing before, other then html and css, can make web sites. But would like to be able to program for my web sites, what should I learn first any particular language or beginners programing to get the concepts of programming, Thx

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJweb View Post
    What should I learn first any particular language or beginners programing to get the concepts of programming, Thx
    That depends entirely on what you are hoping to achieve.
    Could you give us an example and then we will be able to advise you better.

  4. #29
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    I would be putting on my web site, contact page, forms with an email responds, login section of site, a page where user after they login can make changes to there team selections ( I guess that would be a database), Thx

  5. #30
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    C/C++ can be fun but also a complete pig if you have a bug. This is not the first language I started with, prior to learning some C and C++ I meddled in machine languages like Forth, the sort of stuff that made vending machines work before more complex systems came in to being like Java based systems.

    JavaScript is to me fun to use, it is very simple language that should have a compilation module to allow quicker run-time in the browser, I am aware of the JScript option but that can break very easily if you need to edit a page for any reason. It really needs to be updated and given more power, in its youth it was abused by people and had its wings clipped but even today you still get people asking how to access files with it!!! So maybe it it should stay neutered.

    Python I have no experience of but have installed the console several times with the promise that I would try doing things in it but never get the time to spend on it. If it were native to web browsers like JavaScript and VBScript then I would learn it.

    VBScript - frankly, I don't like it one bit, it reminds me of the QuickBasic that Miscorsoft developed as a tool for basic programmers to render an executable file. I did try QB and my first file that accepted an input and displayed "Hello <name of person>" was 100.7MB, I thought that was a tad excessive in size compared to the 180Kb of the compiled version for Windows.

    PHP is really good to use for web development although I have seen comments about using it outside of a web page environment, it really isn't meant to be used like that, its a bit like trying to turbo charge a robin reliant. I did use a shell script to call a PHP script because doing what I wanted in shell scripting was not easy and I required allot of help getting the shell script together because it is very cryptic. Still, I got the script to do what it was supposed to do and it called a PHP script to do the web server stuff.

    Frameworks, not a great fan of these to be honest, if it can be done in PHP, why reinvent the wheel?

    JavaScript frameworks, don't go there, JQuery IS NOT JavaScript and it is one thing that does blow up my kilt a bit and I note that this site lumps JQuery in with JavaScript, IMHO it should have its own forum and leave JavaScript to the purists.

  6. #31
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abdussamad View Post
    Thank you. I always thought Python was newer than PHP. I looked it up and it is much older!
    It surprises a lot of people that pick it up after learning another language. In many ways, it's quite shocking that no one thought to use it to build websites sooner. The same can be said for Ruby. The language itself is a lot older than most think.

    Quote Originally Posted by abdussamad View Post
    I've been into PHP for a few years but recently got interested in python. It seems to be more powerful than PHP so I am surprised by this statement.
    Power is relative, based on what you want to do. PHP is in no way a weak language, but as any PHP developer will know it's very easy to write something that works, but isn't pretty. To some, that is power. PHP can be used on pretty much any server, just by dropping the files onto the file system. If you're using Python you're probably using a framework, which needs setting up. If you're using Django, you can't just drop your files in and expect it to work. You need to register your apps, and you'll want to ensure the correct level of separation. In PHP any sane developer would want to do the same, but if you really wanted you could just throw any old file in there and it'll (probably) work.

    Quote Originally Posted by abdussamad View Post
    IMO Python would be easier for newbies and also teaches them some good habits like code indentation. But of course PHP skills are more lucrative.
    Most modern languages are "nice" in that way. I write C# for a living and I find it to be one of the nicest languages to use day-to-day.

    However, PHP is still the most widely used language around, because it's been used for so long. Nowadays, I doubt there are many companies with a senior lead would choose to write PHP for a brand new project, so over the next 5-10 years I think PHP will become the next "legacy" language.

    That being said, I'd say that Python and Ruby are more lucrative than PHP, easily. I'd then say that Java and C# are again much more lucrative. The reason for this is as I've said above. People will pay a limited amount of money to get someone to maintain a PHP project, because there are a lot of PHP devs out there. New projects are written in the others, and those with experience in the latter languages will probably find more pay because finding good developers in said languages is trickier.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    It surprises a lot of people that pick it up after learning another language. In many ways, it's quite shocking that no one thought to use it to build websites sooner. The same can be said for Ruby. The language itself is a lot older than most think.



    Power is relative, based on what you want to do. PHP is in no way a weak language, but as any PHP developer will know it's very easy to write something that works, but isn't pretty. To some, that is power. PHP can be used on pretty much any server, just by dropping the files onto the file system. If you're using Python you're probably using a framework, which needs setting up. If you're using Django, you can't just drop your files in and expect it to work. You need to register your apps, and you'll want to ensure the correct level of separation. In PHP any sane developer would want to do the same, but if you really wanted you could just throw any old file in there and it'll (probably) work.



    Most modern languages are "nice" in that way. I write C# for a living and I find it to be one of the nicest languages to use day-to-day.

    However, PHP is still the most widely used language around, because it's been used for so long. Nowadays, I doubt there are many companies with a senior lead would choose to write PHP for a brand new project, so over the next 5-10 years I think PHP will become the next "legacy" language.

    That being said, I'd say that Python and Ruby are more lucrative than PHP, easily. I'd then say that Java and C# are again much more lucrative. The reason for this is as I've said above. People will pay a limited amount of money to get someone to maintain a PHP project, because there are a lot of PHP devs out there. New projects are written in the others, and those with experience in the latter languages will probably find more pay because finding good developers in said languages is trickier.
    Well has there a new language that emerges as it were going to take over PHP? I remember the node.js hype before, but it seems that the language still has a long way to go.

  8. #33
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hall of Famer View Post
    Well has there a new language that emerges as it were going to take over PHP? I remember the node.js hype before, but it seems that the language still has a long way to go.
    For web use, I'd say that most of the main offerings (C#, Ruby, and Python) are all more than mature enough for building websites. I'd even throw Java in there as well.

    PHP will be around for another decade, without a shadow of a doubt. However, it's very unlikely that we'll see many brand new products built in PHP. If you want to learn a language, PHP will get you employed, but you'll be likely to spend your time maintaining existing apps or extending existing code bases. A developer that knows one of the languages mentioned above is far more likely to be working on new software, or maintaining newer code bases.

    I'm not a fan of Node.js. It fills a niche very nicely, and it's a nice tool, but there's something very dirty about using JavaScript, a language many people already hate, to write server-side code. Add the whole mess than is firing up your own Node.js server to serve production code instead of using tried-and-trusted Apache and Nginx and I feel that it's got a LONG way to go.

    If a beginning developer were to ask me what they should learn I'd say ASP.NET/C#, Ruby/Rails, or Python/Django. These three are the future of web development and are mature enough that you'll always find work. They're also built on very nice frameworks. PHP is nice to know, but most new work will probably be done in either Ruby or Python, and C# for those on the .NET stack.

    If you really want to get crazy, there's always Clojure and Scala. Both run on the JVM, and both are great fun to use. My experience with both are very limited, but they are growing in popularity and could be worth watching.

  9. #34
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    Hey ULTiMATE,

    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    If a beginning developer were to ask me what they should learn I'd say ASP.NET/C#, Ruby/Rails, or Python/Django. These three are the future of web development and are mature enough that you'll always find work. They're also built on very nice frameworks. PHP is nice to know, but most new work will probably be done in either Ruby or Python, and C# for those on the .NET stack.
    I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I'm curious as to why you think Ruby/Python will be increasingly favoured over PHP for new projects? Is this based on a general trend you've noticed?

  10. #35
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fretburner View Post
    I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I'm curious as to why you think Ruby/Python will be increasingly favoured over PHP for new projects? Is this based on a general trend you've noticed?
    Both languages and their frameworks are now mature enough to handle most web projects, and are vastly preferred by developers. Because of this, we'll see a lot more technical projects started in Ruby and Python. You only need to look at any large technical community to notice this.

    Additionally, if you look at a typical job board, you'll see a lot of newer companies looking for Ruby and Python developers. Any company building a new web platform or application will immediately look towards Ruby or Python, because both are mature languages with rich libraries/frameworks.

    I suppose it's quite clear to see why. If you're an experienced web developer, what would you rather choose to write software in? A decade ago, PHP was far better to write code in than Perl. Now, Ruby and Python offers a cleaner architecture, and boasts rapid development as a part of their strongest frameworks. Not only that, but both languages are a lot cleaner than PHP. This is why the trend to move towards Ruby and Python are already in place.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    Additionally, if you look at a typical job board, you'll see a lot of newer companies looking for Ruby and Python developers. Any company building a new web platform or application will immediately look towards Ruby or Python, because both are mature languages with rich libraries/frameworks.
    This is a bit of an over reach. This is regional dependent. Here in Columbus OH, you'll see about 1-2% are Ruby, Python, Perl while aprox 30-40% are LAMP stack postings, and the remainder being .NET

    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    I suppose it's quite clear to see why. If you're an experienced web developer, what would you rather choose to write software in? A decade ago, PHP was far better to write code in than Perl. Now, Ruby and Python offers a cleaner architecture, and boasts rapid development as a part of their strongest frameworks. Not only that, but both languages are a lot cleaner than PHP. This is why the trend to move towards Ruby and Python are already in place.
    This is also arguable, except for the "cleaner" part.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Enthusiast abdussamad's Avatar
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    I strongly disagree with the idea that no new code will be written using PHP. That is ridiculous. PHP is great and there is a lot of code and talent you can build on. This is important because nothing is written from scratch anymore.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by abdussamad View Post
    I strongly disagree with the idea that no new code will be written using PHP. That is ridiculous. PHP is great and there is a lot of code and talent you can build on. This is important because nothing is written from scratch anymore.
    Well this... Yes there are still new code written in PHP, actually more than in Python, Ruby, Node.js, C#.net. Nonetheless, most of them are either open source or noncommercial softwares. The situation is quite different if we are talking about enterprise softwares/applications, but one can then argue that PHP was never seriously applied in enterprise application development in the very first place(it was mostly java servlet/JSP, C#.net, and now we see Python too).

  14. #39
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe View Post
    This is a bit of an over reach. This is regional dependent. Here in Columbus OH, you'll see about 1-2% are Ruby, Python, Perl while aprox 30-40% are LAMP stack postings, and the remainder being .NET
    That percentage is quite good, considering that Ruby and Python have only been popular for building websites for a few years. Also bearing in mind that both are improving considerably over time, I reckon we'll see that number grow over the years, with PHP to decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe View Post
    This is also arguable, except for the "cleaner" part.
    How is it arguable? Rails and Django are established frameworks, and given that a lot of PHP developers build straight from WordPress it's almost solid fact that you'll get cleaner code from a framework than from hacking on WordPress or writing without a framework.

    Quote Originally Posted by abdussamad View Post
    I strongly disagree with the idea that no new code will be written using PHP. That is ridiculous. PHP is great and there is a lot of code and talent you can build on. This is important because nothing is written from scratch anymore.
    Your comment offers very little to the discussion. How is PHP great, exactly? Also, how is "having lots of code" a good thing when a lot of that code is quite poor?

    You're right that nothing is built from scratch any more. It's exactly why Rails and Django have taken off as well as they have, because they enforce the use of a framework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    How is it arguable? Rails and Django are established frameworks, and given that a lot of PHP developers build straight from WordPress it's almost solid fact that you'll get cleaner code from a framework than from hacking on WordPress or writing without a framework.
    We'll lets get something cleared up here. Your comparing Django and rails to Wordpress? Seriously? How about a real framework not some lazy mans pile of crap code (not to bash wordpress for what it is, but it is not a true framework)

    Enforcing the use of a framework is not necessarily always a good thing either.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe View Post
    We'll lets get something cleared up here. Your comparing Django and rails to Wordpress? Seriously? How about a real framework not some lazy mans pile of crap code (not to bash wordpress for what it is, but it is not a true framework)
    I agree completely, but you can't deny the fact that it's what a lot of PHP developers will turn to when building a website. There are loads of huge websites, including this one, built on what you (rightly) call a "lazy mans pile of crap code". Django and Rails aren't perfect, and they aren't suitable for every project, but there is still choice out there, and the choice is a lot better than WordPress.

    Yes, Symfony, CakePHP, Zend, and the others have come a long way, but only really in response to the likes of Rails and Django. They are playing catch-up, and considering the maturity of both Ruby and Python before they became suitable for web programming, both have a considerably head-start on PHP in terms of building clean, usable code.

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Wolfe View Post
    Enforcing the use of a framework is not necessarily always a good thing either.
    My main point is that the language itself enforces the need to run a framework in order to get the code running. With PHP, many shared servers are configured to just run a PHP file that has been plopped onto a server. While very useful, it's led to some monstrous code. You can't just upload a *.py or *.rb file onto a server and run it without something to help run that code.

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    The word "powerful" is too broad and could have many meanings, so I can't give specifics. But I do feel like I should comment here:

    I've done plenty of PHP coding and have almost 10 years of web development experience behind me already, and recently I decided to update my skillset and start learning Python and DJango and using Bootstrap. I'm still a "noob" with all three of these specifically, but from a noob's perspective, I can see that what I'm learning now is surely going to enable me to get projects done way faster than what I'm used to. Fresh built-from-scratch ideas that would have taken months to complete should now only take weeks, or maybe even days. Being able to get a stable and satisfactory solution completed faster than the next person is an attractive skill to have. Not only does it enable you to materialize self-owned projects at a faster pace, but clients and employers will be more likely to offer higher paying opportunities because you're the candidate who gives them the biggest bang for their bucks. Thats quite an empowerment.

  18. #43
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    ^ but that's more an argument for frameworks rather than much to do with the language.

    A friend of mine said pretty much your words when describing doing a project using PHP, CodeIgnitor and Bootstrap.

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    What makes Ruby harder to learn for a complete beginner is that it forces OO concepts and ways of thinking/doing things.
    PHP allows you to program procedurally or OOP, or both.

    Learning OOP and when and why is tough for a lot of more experienced people, so dumping all that on a beginner can be very overwhelming.

    I believe that it is easier to learn how to program by doing so procedurally at first -- you learn how to do all the basics in the language. Then eventually when you have the hang of it, you start figuring out on your own that "there must be a better or easier way of doing X".
    When you reach that point, you are ready to jump into the awesome world that is OOP.

  20. #45
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    As for Ruby or Python displacing PHP.....well, we've been hearing that for nearly a decade now, and PHPs usage continues to expand. It's currently running 81.6% of websites in the world...in that regard, it is the Windows of the web development world

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by arout77 View Post
    It's currently running 81.6% of websites in the world.
    I hate it when people use this as a point of PHP being something.

    Sure, a lot of webpages use PHP. Crappy little home-town business websites running on Wordpress, Joomla, or maybe Drupal. And there are a lot of them, they probably outnumber everything else 1000 to 1. But quite a large portion of web applications or functional websites run on something else. Be it ASP.Net, Python, Ruby, Node, or the JVM.

    PHP has it's place and it's place is being highly portable and having everything there out of the box. But IMHO, if when you start looking at using Frameworks or anything like that, you've already stepped too far out of what it should be used for.

    I just finished a small single page PHP script yesterday that totaled in about 150 lines. It accepts a file transfer from a remote server and resizes it and stores it. There really wasn't anything better than PHP to use, because the heavy lifting is being done by Imagick anyway and anything else would take more overhead to get running. The server does absolutely nothing else but store and serve these images. This sort of thing is what PHP is good at and all it should be used for, or when you want something to run on basically any web server configuration. It's just slow and if you get past that, it's still messy, fragmented, and just all around clunky.

    No serious development shop is going to even consider PHP for anything else.

  22. #47
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    There really wasn't anything better than PHP to use, because the heavy lifting is being done by Imagick anyway and anything else would take more overhead to get running.
    In other words, this could have been written in about 2 lines of Perl code and instead of PHP imagemagick you could have used PerlMagick :P

    Where PHP beats out most others for these one-off scripts is the cheap-hosting area. Trying to get Python, Ruby, Perl or anything else where you'd like some libs/modules is a pain in the butt/not possible with most of the el-cheapo hosters-- and these are exactly the hosting companies you'd want to use for something small, quick and probably temporary (months to a year rather than years and years).

    I've seen some raves about a decent (PHP) CMS, Bolt. Since developers are continuing to search for the holy grail of "a CMS that doesn't suck", and since everyone who's ever touched PHP seems to have made a CMS somewhere, it's probable that some less-sucky-than-all-others CMS will be the reason some company chooses PHP.

    I work in e-commerce, which by us happens to be Python, but most of our competitors are using Magento, which is PHP. There aren't too many open-source e-commerce solutions with any robustness, so for example pretty much any non-homegrown e-commerce setup will be using PHP-- again because of the software needed (Magento), not any particular merits of the language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mawburn View Post
    I hate it when people use this as a point of PHP being something.

    Sure, a lot of webpages use PHP. Crappy little home-town business websites running on Wordpress, Joomla, or maybe Drupal. And there are a lot of them, they probably outnumber everything else 1000 to 1. But quite a large portion of web applications or functional websites run on something else. Be it ASP.Net, Python, Ruby, Node, or the JVM.

    PHP has it's place and it's place is being highly portable and having everything there out of the box. But IMHO, if when you start looking at using Frameworks or anything like that, you've already stepped too far out of what it should be used for.

    I just finished a small single page PHP script yesterday that totaled in about 150 lines. It accepts a file transfer from a remote server and resizes it and stores it. There really wasn't anything better than PHP to use, because the heavy lifting is being done by Imagick anyway and anything else would take more overhead to get running. The server does absolutely nothing else but store and serve these images. This sort of thing is what PHP is good at and all it should be used for, or when you want something to run on basically any web server configuration. It's just slow and if you get past that, it's still messy, fragmented, and just all around clunky.

    No serious development shop is going to even consider PHP for anything else.
    As someone who contracts on a regular basis for the largest studio in Maryland, I have to say that you are talking out of your rear when you say no major shop is going to consider PHP.

    Perfect example of that is how we recently compiled portions of their brand new site into a PHP extension. Why? Because neither PHP nor Python nor Ruby can run some of the core functions of the application fast enough. PHP is much more than a toy language with limited use cases. If it's good enough for Facebook and Wikipedia, it's good enough for "serious projects that companies would never consider PHP for".
    The new projects this company brings in....PHP outnumbers Ruby and Python COMBINED by a ratio of 4:1 as of last month. And these are not some backwoods, insignificant websites / applications

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJweb View Post
    Ok, I never did any programing before, other then html and css, can make web sites. But would like to be able to program for my web sites, what should I learn first any particular language or beginners programing to get the concepts of programming, Thx
    I woulld start with PHP.
    Easiest language to dive into more advanced concepts in, once you get the hang of basic programming concepts....in other words, it let's you learn at your own pace, rather than forcing abstract concepts on you from the beginning.

    Before the Perl and Python guys get riled up, it doesn't necessarily mean PHP is a better language, all it means is that it is friendlier to new programmers than other languages are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arout77 View Post
    As someone who contracts on a regular basis for the largest studio in Maryland, I have to say that you are talking out of your rear when you say no major shop is going to consider PHP.
    I can fit square pegs in round holes all day long with a knife. If the knife is sharp enough, I can probably get them to fit pretty damn well too.

    That doesn't mean I shouldn't probably be using the square holes instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by arout77 View Post
    If it's good enough for Facebook and Wikipedia, it's good enough for "serious projects that companies would never consider PHP for".
    I don't know what Facebook's thing for PHP is, where almost every other major site has moved away from their prototyping language into something stronger... but they have done some pretty damn impressive work re-shaping that round hole to better fit square pegs.

    Wikipedia has been around long enough where PHP was the hot new language that was way better than custom CGI code. I know they run on a very small very talented development team, so this probably explains why they haven't switched.
    Last edited by Pullo; Jul 19, 2014 at 04:46.


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